Jai Long - Making your Break, Creative Entrepreneur

In today's episode, we chat with the amazing Jai Long. If you haven't heard that name up until now we don't understand how... Jai has an energy about him that you just can't help but vibe with. He's a wedding photographer based in Melbourne, Australia, a high-level Business Coach, co-founder of fashion label NōSkin, founder of The Wedding Photography Summit, host of the Make your Break Podcast, an incurable optimist and a prolific reader! 

There's something for everyone in this one. Come, listen, and get inspired <3

Chapters

• 1:45 The Interview
• 1:15:28 The summary

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Hello beautiful people and welcome to the creative myth. The podcast that attempts to inspire by unfolding breaking down and distilling that mythical force of nature known as creativity. Our goal is to bust the myth that creativity is the birthright of the few. In each biweekly episode, we find a new self confessed creative and strike up a dialogue. Otherwise, said Jenna and I sit down and discuss a topic that has something to do with creativity, and how it relates to our roles as photographers, artists, adventures and parents. We track down some of the most creative creatives out there and find out just what creativity means to them, what they do to encourage it in their lives, and how you might channel it into your passions. But who is we? We are such a blessing and Ben lane, wife and husband Indian and kiwi adventure photographers, international Roma's and curious mind, you may know us as the medic lovers of adventure tended photography, and if not, you can follow our adventures over on Instagram at Turner photography and on our web page turner photography comm. Of course, don't forget to check out the creative myth on Instagram while you're there. And if this podcast tickles your earholes in all the right places. Please help us out by leaving a review on whatever platform you're observing us on. Today on the creative myth we are chuffed to be chatting with the multifaceted, nigh unstoppable force that goes by the name of Jai long guy is a multi award winning wedding photographer based in Melbourne. And when he's not photographing a love story, he's working on his vegan fashion label no skin, or creating the largest online photography workshop in the world, the wedding photography Summit, or riding the crypto wave or flipping houses or reading 150 books a year. Joy is not your average creative he breathes new life into everything he does. But enough introductions, let's hear from the man himself. Okay, so welcome to the creative myth die. It's thrilling to have you to say the least you are fascinating, inspirational, creative, who is full of stories and insights. As a photographer, your work is both polished and full of free expression. And as a teacher, you're intuitively clear about the hustle and our way out of it. You've also partnered with your friends to create a vegan fashion label no skin, there is so much to explore here with you. But before we start, we both want to start so badly. Before we start, for the uninitiated, people who haven't had the pleasure of seeing your work. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, of course, thank you for having me on the show. So my name is Jai. I'm Melbourne based. I am a wedding photographer, full time wedding photographer. I'm also a full time business coach, predominantly for wedding photographers and photographers. I've been doing that since 2015. And I have a fashion label. So that's called No no skin. I've got a podcast, it's called Make your break. I've got a property development company where like I buy properties and building houses and doing things like that. What else do I do? I do a lot of lot of things. And I think what I bring to the world is I was never formally trained, I didn't really go to school. And so for me, like business is something that I've like failed hard in and have succeeded so many times and I've built seven figure businesses and six figure businesses and I've been bankrupt and I've been everywhere in between. So for me like everything is like leading from the heart and teaching from what I actually do not just teaching from the books. And I think that's what makes me stand out and what makes me like really love what I do every single day because it's me in there with everybody else, you know, on this crazy adventure that we call business or we call life or we call art or whatever we we find ourselves doing so that's pretty much me in a nutshell. I guess. Yeah, that's a great answer Okay, I have I have a question. And I've been wanting to know this since I have seen your work is how did the camera and you start your journey together? Because I have my story. I want to know your story. Like how out of all the creative things camera before that like Right, let's just go right back. Ah, you took it. Okay, we'll get we'll get. Let's start with like, what was it like growing up for for young Jai? Did you come from what you would think of as like a creative household? We just kind of want to get an idea of like, where you sprang from? Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up my earliest years, I was actually homeless with my family. And we used to go in and out of, there was a lot of domestic violence and stuff. So it used to go in and out of charities and women's refuges and things like that. So between that living in tents living in cars living in a bus, travelling the East Coast, it's kind of like where I started, I guess. And my dad, he used to play a lot of music and his friends play a lot of music. So he was a type of guy that would probably just smoke weed every single day, play some music. And I was always mesmerised by like how he could create something from nothing, and how he to captivate a room with with music. And, for me, I think that was the start of creativity. And I also realised, because I never got told no, I didn't have to go to school put up my hands, I didn't have to wear a uniform, I didn't have to listen to other people's rules, which means I had, I guess, a creative freedom, which meant, I think different. And I approach things differently. And so for me, things that make sense to my minds, like logically or creative creatively, might not make sense to other people, or we think a lot different. But I noticed that a lot of people get stuck because they get told no all the time. Or they shouldn't, or they should calm down, or they shouldn't do that. Or instead of them trying, you know, to do it themselves. So that was my early years. And as I grew up, we moved into a teepee for a little bit. My sister was actually born in a teepee. And then I finally went to school. And then we thought, we want a waiting list for Government House for seven years. And that's why we were homeless and stuff. And we finally moved into that. So the first time I lived in the proper houses when I was 11 years old, and moved into that, and I there was a lot of domestic violence and stuff happening, like we lived in a very dangerous state. So I end up moving out of home when I was about 1617. Now 16 1516 Got myself, a job moved out of home, and I've been sort of pursuing my own life since then sort of thing you know, trying to change my life and make something of myself. So I've been on a very purpose driven journey since since is as far back as I can remember, that's amazing guy. There's definitely a point of difference between yourself and many others. When you're saying the whole, like, you know, you weren't told though, and you didn't have to conform to that sort of stuff. And thanks, myself, I have ADHD, and my childhood was almost entirely that right. Sit down, sit on your hands. What are you doing? Like why? Yeah, so me, it's been a get that at adulthood of like, trying to shed that. And learning. Yeah, and learning. And yeah, so having somebody to follow, like yourself is a very interesting, beautiful journey to be on because you see somebody else leading that path, and you think this is possible, I can dream this way. So that is, that's this just an incredible story. Yes. Do write that book ASAP. Yeah, I mean, that that's sort of just the this the starting of it all, I guess. But um, I do understand what you're saying with ADHD or a DD and stuff. Because like, when I was growing up, people always say that about me, it's like the problem child, like, he can't concentrate. And he can't do this, especially when I first finally got into school. But for me, and my parents was like, there's nothing wrong with me manners got energy, I just, I've got purpose, I'll go drive. Like I want to do things. You know, I don't want to sit in the classroom. And so I've been like that forever. So like, I believe, you know, there ain't nothing wrong with me. You know, there's nothing wrong with you. There's, you know, and I think, if society doesn't accept you, because everyone's trying to downplay themselves, or their energy, or their focus, or whatever it is, like I don't think reflects on us as having the problem. I think maybe the problem is out in the world and why? Why isn't everyone acting like kids? Like, why isn't everybody out there with that much energy enthusiasm about life? Like, I think there's a problem there. Yeah. I mean, I remember watching a TED talk about ADHD, and I can't remember who it was. But they were saying that in the hunter gatherer times, you know, they were the ones who would be the best hunters, they were the ones who were most astute and most aware of everything going on around them. And it's just the fact that the world has changed that society is swivelled with that. But up until very recently, ADHD is with the heavy hitters. So it's comedy of any sort doesn't lead to anything good. Yeah. Regardless of which side the conformity is on, it's just it's not good and about the school. My struggle was that the school Prime's you in a place where the challenges are unreal. You know, they are not like the challenges are in the real world. So you're cocooned in a space where things are a certain way. And suddenly, when you are face to face with the world, it's like, the world is slapping you every day. It's like, you don't get this and you're like, you don't understand life. Suddenly, you go from being a topper being being able to win awards, doing everything and suddenly you're like, what, I am nothing, I am nobody, I can't do anything you feel paralysed by that? Your exposure into this huge world. And for me, that's what I experienced when I came to New Zealand when I was in India. The school I was in. Everything was just I feel now looking back, felt like everything was just working for me. And I could find myself through those challenges very easily. And it was such a huge challenge figuring out a new culture, new environment. And then reckoning with yourself, because who you were, was completely skewed by this made up environment, which was cool. And I do I do agree with that. And I think, for me, it was the opposite though. So I like I knew life and I felt like I was important. And I was special and stuff. And then I went to school, and they tried to take that out of me. So when I left school, I was like, back into my element. Yeah, it goes back in the world. And so I was like, because I think for me, like, I wasn't like, I went to a rough school, like a really rough school. And I think, for me to get to school, my parents didn't want me to go to school. So I had to, like, walk up to the office, I remember, I was like, I think 15 years old. And I had to actually go in there and I and I booked myself in as if I was my parents to, like, have an interview to get into the school. And I had to lie to him to get into the school. So I had to hustle my way into this into this rough school, right. But I was made like taking control of my life, because I want to change my life. But when I got in there, and I did get my certificate It was then I wanted to get back out back to the real world. So I think for me, like I was never sheltered by school school was something that did hold me back a little bit. wasn't for me at all. Like it showed me that I didn't have a high IQ. I didn't have like a big attention spans, and all that kind of stuff. But but at the same time, I had so many other skills, you know, I could go through life, and I think that's probably a better skill to have. Oh, yes. So So one of the things I liked about high school was that it gave me an opportunity. Like, there was a tonne of stuff like, like, keep me away from maths and biology, you know, it was just like, oh, but there was other things like outdoor pursuits, art, photography, graphics, metalwork, that sort of stuff, which I got to try. Did any of that sort of foster anything new like for moving forwards? Yeah, totally. I was actually I loved my woodwork class. And I was always the best top of the class for all my art art classes. Yeah. Because art was the only one where my teacher would say, Jaya, you got complete control and creative expression. Yeah. And I would go out and I'll create something and bring it back. And I got rewarded for it. I was like, I can't believe this way. Everyone else told me I was wrong. They always said no matter what I traded, it was right. And so I loved. I loved it. Like ever since I was a kid. I just I thrived in it. Yeah, that's so amazing. Well, in that respect, I come from an Indian school system where everything was rote learned. Also art. So when we had to do art, we were given very clear instructions on the colour of the sky, and how the mountains need to look like how the bird was like that. And so my teachers were very unhappy with my artistic expression for the longest time. So my name is Serge. And I'd means creative creation in Punjabi. And so I always thought of myself as a creative person, just because, you know, I would explain my name to people all the time. They didn't know what was surgeon and be like, Oh, it means creation. And so I dabbled in a lot of creative things. But in school, I was completely shunned by people who were teaching was there to teach me Creative Arts was like, my dance teacher called my parents and said, Oh, she will not follow the tune. She can never dance. Same thing happened with art. Same thing happened with me. She's an incredible dancer, by the way. But it was so hard. And then you had to learn all of that. Become an academic student, come out of the country and realise, I remember my first class in the university. And the professor told us, so we're going to read this whole thing and come back in 15 minutes, and came back in 15 minutes. And he said, what was wrong in it? And I could not wrap my head around that. How could he ask a question, which said, what was wrong in a book? Because my entire life was about book is right. You cannot have individual thought. So But anyways, I have questions. We have gone somewhere else. I want to now know how did the camera and you start your journey together? Yeah. Okay. So when I was younger, I like I played a lot of music. And I used to do gigs and things like that. And one of my friends had a camera, and he used to love it. And every time you take a photo, I would always look at the photo and critique it and tell him how he could have taken it better. And years went on with me doing that just not being the nicest person, I guess. And one day, he was like, why don't you take the camera and I was like, Okay, I will. But at this stage, I was working as electrician I was working in. I was working at community in Western Australia. So I was a mining town. I was working on a hospital in the mining town. And after work, everyone would go to the pub, everyone drank everyone take drugs and stuff. And I wasn't really into that lifestyle at all. So I was like, You know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna get this camera and I'm gonna go take photos of the beach. So every afternoon after work, I'd go down to the beach or just take photos of anything. Rocks, shells, you know, people walking past didn't matter. Yeah. And I started Love, I was like, I felt like I was good at it from from the start, and in a sense of like, the photos are terrible, but like I was good at it because I was like passionate about it. And I knew composition, like I had a good eye for something. And even though I didn't know how to use my camera, I could I could make something that I wanted. And, yeah, from there, like, that was like in my early 20s. And then, after a while, I started getting more serious about and I got serious about, like, changing my life, like photography, for me was never about photography or taking photos, it was about getting into, into new groups of people, new circles, making new friends, new connections. And I was like, imagine if I was a wedding photographer, and I charged a lot of money, I'd probably make some friends that like make a lot of money and like, I'll be surrounded by people that I want to be. And so like it really was that for me. And so photography was just my way into start a conversation, talk to people and being a new room because that's what I wanted. I wanted to I wanted to be see what was possible in this world. And I knew I was only limited by my own surroundings. So yeah, I loved it. That's awesome. So So what was that first wedding? Like for you? Man, I've got a really funny story about the first wedding, I have a shot. So my wife came with me and to help me out and I was like, I just booked this wedding is gonna be awesome. They paid me $500 And I was just like mind blown that I even paid me. And two things like I didn't really have any money. So I had the worst lenses. I had a fisheye lens 15 mil, and then I had a 70 to 200 like telescopic lens. So really how to shoot a wedding on. Second thing is I never been to a wedding set my parents wedding in our lounge room. So I never been to a wedding before. I didn't know what they do. Like I had no idea, right? So when you talk about fake it till you make it like I was walking around going, what happens next. And so they had the ceremony, I was like, what happens next? And they're like, oh, so they're gonna have ceremony, they'll kiss my cool. So I was just shooting it. I was pretending I was confident, you know? Well, I was confident I was just pretending I knew what I was doing. And then, um, and then after a while I got, I took all these photos. And I felt like I did a great job. And then the next thing was we'll go into the reception. And then when I got to the reception, I looked around, I noticed everyone was sitting down there getting a meal. And so I was like, oh, it's the wedding's over. Like it's dinnertime. Okay, so when after the couple and I was like, thanks for having me today. Like was awesome. Like, I'm gonna get out of here. And I remember them saying, like, where you going? As I'm going home, like, you know, whatever. And anyway, so we left. And it wasn't until like a year later, because that wedding actually got featured in a lot of places. And he later I remember looking back through it, I was like, why don't leave halfway through the day? Oh, cuz I didn't know there was a reception like, I had no idea. And no one ever said anything. So yeah, that was my first wedding. And I always surprised they never said anything, you know? Has entrepreneurship changed your creative mind? No, not at all. Like, I think entrepreneurship is creativity. Like, the whole definition of like an entrepreneur is like receiving something that others wouldn't, you know, thinking differently? Yeah, solving more problems that other people wouldn't doing things that other people wouldn't do. And extending yourself like that. And so for entrepreneurship, for me is creativity. And so it's the reason why I started my first business when I was 20 years old, because I was flexing my creativity saying, like, how can I create something for myself? And for the people around me? How can I help people? How can I serve people? So it definitely hasn't changed anything? I've run my business the same as I take a photo, like everything flows together, there is no difference between anything. Yeah, I hear that so much that creativity is being sucked out of me because I have to earn money or creativity is I can't express myself because everybody has to do the same thing on social media. And it has always confused me. Because if we keep doing what everybody is doing, how do we stand out. But again, I think that's the unlearning thing that people have to do. That you just do it intuitively, then the whole idea about entrepreneurial life is to do things creatively. Well, I think there's a difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur because a business owner repeats a proven structure time and time again to get profit, right. But an entrepreneur is willing to risk more, lose more, do more, regardless of the outcome. And so when you think about that, that's, ah, like, you're willing to go out there create something, something that you love, something that like, makes that moves you. And you do that, regardless of the outcome, because it might be something terrible. Who knows, right? So when I think about that, like there's a big, huge wide gap between a business owner which most people are and then they'll consider themselves entrepreneurs, but they won't risk anything, right. Yeah, but so they're a business owner or an entrepreneur. Completely different. Yeah, that's, that's a way to put it. Yeah, that's really well put Jack because it's definitely I mean, there are moments when we, like think of ourselves as entrepreneurs, but in that respect, I think we're playing it safe quite a lot lately. I mean, there's COVID The There's our new little son come along. And there's certain things where you think this is just business, this part of it, and we'll do this other, I think we don't think that we use that as an excuse, that's fear. Because it's safe. You know, at that point, safety, sadness, all these negative things in life are more comforting than actually taking risks and chasing your own happiness. So I think that at that time, we're just fooling ourselves. Yeah. You talk about how you're testing new ideas and new testing new things and trying to see how things work and don't work. And at the same time, you're doing things that bring you joy. Am I correct? Yeah. Okay. So is there any time that you moving from theory to practice ever wrote test any of your ideas? Or do you straight go and do it to the world? Do I wrote test anything? Or do I just do things? Is that what you're asking me? Yeah, I definitely just do things. Yeah, very good. Like the testing is doing so. And like, because people will tell you something like, for instance, like, I want to write a book, right? So I'm going to do that next year. And so when I tell someone that they'll tell me that it's hard to write a book, and people don't read books anymore, and it's hard to get published, and it's hard to sell them in bookstores, and it's hard for this, but they've never written a book, right? So too often, it's like, well, until I write a book, I don't actually know what it's like. And so we can read all the books in the world, we can listen to all the podcasts, and but until you actually do something, you don't have your own data. And I think that's the most important thing is like create a baseline. So whenever I'm teaching something, it's because hey, man, I've tried this, or someone will tell me like, oh, you know, a price guide works better than a PDF or a web page or something. And I'm like, are you actually going to data because I can tell you right now, we've tested 1000s. And I can tell you exactly what works. Because that's, you know, being an entrepreneur, it's like we do this, and then the business owner or adapt that. Entrepreneurs are always in front of the trends, because they're innovating something, they are the ones that will try our real, they're the ones that will try something different. And then once everyone sees that it's proven, and it works, then we adapt it ourselves. Does that make sense? As a business owner? Yeah, absolutely. So how do you know like, an idea is worth following. Like, you never know. It's within yourself? How do you get excited, if you get excited, and you're super excited about something, then it's worth pursuing. And if you tell someone and they get excited, then it's definitely worth it. And if it's worth your time, and you're willing to do it for free, then it's definitely worth it. So for instance, like working for free is one of the best things right? So when I first started wedding photography, I shot like, the first year I shot so many free weddings, I still shoot weddings for free. Like I would do it for free. When I started my, you know, my mentoring and workshops in 2015, like my first workshop cost me, I think $5,000 To put on, you know, because if we didn't sell enough tickets, it was out of hand, I didn't have that money. And it was costly. And then when I start doing one on one coaching, I spent last year or year coaching people for free, because I was like, if I would do it for free, then I think it's a good idea, you know, because if it's without the reward, then it's definitely worth it. When I started notice skin, what am I doing, I'm sending out garments for free to people so they can wear my stuff, if I'm willing to do for free and take a loss, then it's no longer driven by the money is driven by the results is driven by the impact or by the creativity or what you can create in the world. And I think that unleashes a lot of things so many people get stuck on something monetary, it's like, oh, how much money? Am I gonna get paid? Am I gonna get paid what I'm worth someone's taking advantage and stuff? It's the wrong metric, I think. Yeah, that's cool. I don't want people feel that from you as well. It's a it's a feeling you get you know, that it's unquantifiable in a way. But that's a very great advice. Because I suffer from this immensely. Personally, we were when we travel from one airport to the other, I have 30 things I want to do. And I'm constantly bugging Ben, oh my gosh, we should do this. This is what we should start doing now. I really want to do it. By the time I've landed in the other country, I am exhausted. I'm exhausted, because I wouldn't I have drank too much and done nothing. But this is such a great advice to, you know, narrow down all these ideas and then see what will I be willing to do for free, and then go from there. Because I always feel as a creative my number one pet peeve is the sheer burden of ideas and the lack of time to do them. It's the same as me. It's like, um, well, just right now, like I'm on a podcast, right? I started my podcast two and a half years ago, and I don't have sponsors on there. I like I do it for free. Like a lot of people, they will charge themselves to do these things. But it's like, then they're not showing up as their true authentic self as well as showing up for a paycheck. We're like, I think about I'm working towards my potential like Man, my potential is I can sit here for free, but maybe I'll make one more connection. Impact one more person, have one more idea. You know, one more new conversation, and maybe I'll reach one more person that needs it the perfect time. So when I think like that with all my businesses, then it's like, oh, I'm making an impact. I'm not working to the paycheck. The paycheck kills you kills creative of that, but But working to potential man, I want to put that in the poster right now because we that that thing paycheck kills creativity that has to be that's it that's going right into it on my forehead. Wrap things back around like a business owner will always tell you not to discount and not to shoot for free and not to do something for free. And make sure you charge what you're worth business owner will write, but an entrepreneur will say like, Hey, what have you got to gain out of that? What could happen out of opening that door? Like you know, so they always think different than never took it like there's not one entrepreneur that I know that's a seven figure entrepreneur ever talks about the money and that blows my mind. And when I talk to someone that's like making five figures, six figures, they're always hung up on the money don't do for free, don't discount don't do this don't under charge don't undervalue. And I'm like, It's the reason why you don't have any money. Right? Yes, because you're living in scarcity. This is so true. When we weren't having we were at that stage of our business when we were having regularly panic attacks, crying fests. I don't know like this really bad place. When people used to ask us what goals do you have for your business? Ben and I could only think in terms of money, right? We'd be like this much money in this year. That's all we could give out. So people are asking or expecting that answer to that. Yes, that's a society. And then we met one of our favourite photographers, Pablo loggia, and he was photographing our elopement. And in between, he asked, How do you want your business to make it? How do you want him to to make you happy? And we just stopped for a second we're like, okay, he said that in his broken Spanish. I don't know if he exactly meant those words. But it just made us stop and think, what are we doing here? We started as creatives we started as this passionate artists who wanted to create something that made us happy. And we've turned into this new rhotic, anxiety ridden panic attack having fights. Yeah, all the time. Whereas money can't spend $1 hungry, like we were constantly hungry. That's That's how much we wanted to save money. I remember there were times we we lived on one slice of pizza for a day. And for days at the end like that, because we were like, we'll make this pizza alone. If we have. And so like, I have a course called the six figure business business map, right? And so yes, people all want money, but then what I teach him, like I sell them what they want, but I teach them what they need. And like, so it's all about like, mindset, and it's all about like, abundance and unlocking things. And I just did, um, I just did a post inside the business map Facebook group, I love to read it out to you if you want. Absolutely. So everyone in this, I didn't make this up. But everyone in there calls themselves sailors, because I had this ship analogy. And everyone, everyone's a sailor, right? So everyone that's in my community. And so I wrote something saying like, what does sailor mean to you? So to change yourself, you need to associate your actions with your core values and who you are as a person. So for example, if I asked you one of the sailors, can you do bare minimum? Would you do it? Or would you not be the person that does the bare minimum of anything, right? If I ask you, are you going to give up? Or are you not the type of person that does give up? Are you going to fail? Or are you not the type of person that will let anything stop you. So being a seller makes you different from everyone else. And here's a few examples that I gave. You are the type of person that pays for coaching programmes to find your next level stuff. You are the type of person who's obsessed over learning, you're the type of person that gives more than you receive. Always, you're the type of person that writes 600 words for your blog post because you know, the bare minimum is 300 words and sailors will never go for minimum or average. You're the type of person that will get uncomfortable and create videos for your website and connect with you and serve your clients. You're the type of person that will add value to your fellow community and lift people up when they need it. You are the type of person that will recharge people. You are the type of person that will set unrealistic goals and take unrealistic actions to make them work. You are the type of person that will ask for help, regardless of how hard it is to ask for help. You are the type of person that is constantly improving all aspects of life. You are the type of person that won't show shy away from a challenge. In fact, you are welcoming the challenges. You're the type of person that will track your money and time. As you know, you can't grow optimise anything that you don't track. You are the type of person that won't accept no, you are the type of person that makes things happen regardless of outside influences. You are the type of person that takes full responsibility for your actions and for your own success. Now the reason why I write this right like literally none of it has anything to do with money. So we joined this thing we think it's all gonna make money, but then it's like, wait a second, he's challenging me of like Putana person, Mr. Now with that association, if you said that like friends Since like if you if you wanted to, like lose weight or something, and then you walk into a store, and then you're going to buy a chocolate bar, then you can ask yourself if you change the association, like, am I the type of person that eats chocolate after work? Like, actually, I'm not, I'm not the type of person, right? And so then you can change the way that you show up in the world by realising like, what actually are your core values? Are you the type of person that will go after a business venture just because it makes money? Or because it brings value to people? Because it brings some sort of happiness? Does that make sense? Absolutely. So I wanted to share that exam. We um, I mean, it's heading home a little bit, because we, we have definitely done some fluctuating between entrepreneurs and business owners. The reason that we took off doing what we do was because we flew to the South Island on our own dime, and surgenor spent nights, like many nights planning a proposal with a really lovely guy in Singapore, we wanted to propose to as his girlfriend, it all started because Pablo asked that question. We were like, what do we actually want to do. And when we picked up the camera for the first time, for Ben and I both it was about connecting with people. I never had friends growing up that I could just, you know, rely on like, as my group of friends and I, I'm crazy. And what's crazy is not even enough word, but just about having people close to me and having a close knit group of friends. So for me picking up the camera was that doing something and bringing people together and learning how do people come together in the first place. And when we made that as our gold, and understood what our values were, and how they aligned with our art, things completely changed for us, in fact, to the point that two years into doing that, we were not even sure how much money we were making no idea we had no idea we were still living like we were living before, but not worried about it. Because we were enjoying our art so much to the point that our accountant centres and email saying, congratulations, guys, things are going really well. We look back at an account and be like we owned what, just what happened here. And then it just changed for us the switch flex been my god, the first five years of our business, it was a business. And we had to prove to everyone that we will be earning money there was so What's your why? Yeah, there was that whole Why are you spending your nights doing this? Like, what is it worth to you? Are you even making minimum wage, you know, per hour are you getting? Have you calculated that all those out there and we're getting that it wears you down if you let it? Well, here's another thing too, like for all those that are that are listening, like when I first started 2013 I shot for free, and I got haters. And I tell people my education to work for free. I get haters all the time, I get people that challenge me everything. Now I want to say one thing is like the people that hated me in 2013, they no longer in business. And I'm a seven figure business owner. So I'm the one that works for free discounts works from like, what makes me happy from you know, from my heart, and I'm the one that gets rewarded the most where other people when they're running from scarcity and worrying about what other people are doing. Instead of worrying about their own business, man, they're going to go out of business. And I've seen it over and over and over. So if you do want permission, and I know people even on this podcast are gonna challenge me on this because it's what we do is like, yeah, it works for you job, but it doesn't work for me, right? But I want to just show you the proof of like, Hey, man, I grew up with nothing. And I am a seven figure, multi seven figure business owner, and I've done it all, basically on my own. And I've done it by doing what I love. You know, and I think and always putting other people first, I think it's just such a different way of thinking about business. Yeah, it's so important that last thing you just said yes, that staying humble is super important. And that frame of mind really changes everything. I know, when I was having panic attacks and anxiety about finances. One of the tools that I used was I made up this string of words, and, and they were Jibberish. But I was telling that if I if I would just meditate with those words and certain peace and just to repeat them, that I'm opening my heart to the universe and opening up to abundance. And that was something that I did for myself. It calmed me down. And I don't know, in a very weird way. It just opened this floodgate of inquiries. I don't know if those happened, because I started showcase showcasing like showing or emanating this the feeling of abundance within me and didn't look desperate. I mean, you said this to me before it's like what like Why have you come to me to talk to me have like, why excited to have me on the podcast right? Now? It's not really because I've done all these things or because I've won the awards because I've made some money. Like it's not is it but but maybe it's my energy. Maybe it's like, oh my God, I want to talk to this guy. Like he's attracted me like a magnet right now. Totally there. And so what am I doing? I'm not looking around at my neighbours, I'm not looking around to see what other people are doing. Like I'm staying in my lane. I'm, like competing myself with myself comparing with myself, you know, with yesterday. And then from there, like, I'm so passionate about what I do. And I bring that into everything I do. And as a result, of course, everything opens up doors open up for me everywhere. I have too many opportunities on the table. At any given time. It's the thing that gives me anxiety because I'm like, Man, I could be doing so many podcast episodes right now I can be doing so many things right now. There's so many opportunities everywhere, right? Yeah. But of course, like you said, like you opened yourself up. And then of course, your clients were attracted to you, because you will no longer push marketing, and pushing things on the people and seeing seeming desperate or anything. You attract people into your universe. Yeah. And you're right about now that we're speaking with you. And hearing your ideas about, you know, that you don't really wrote test them, you just do things. And this is the way of the entrepreneurial life, the way we started our business from become being wedding photographers to adventure photographers was just that a couple came to us. And they said, We are coming here for our honeymoon. And on the call, both Ben and I looked at each other and we said we'll plan your honeymoon for you. And they're like, you'll watch, like, we'll do everything, we'll plan the honeymoon, you don't have to do anything, just land in New Zealand. And we get the whole thing from, from all different vendors to accommodation to people who are going to pick them from the airport. It was a huge learning curve. Awesome. We also still have networks that we created during that first thing, you know that the same makeup artists and young florists we found then we still use today and yeah, yeah, great people. And it was such a massive learning curve. But what it did was it fulfilled what we set out to do in the first place. We made friends around the world, because we were not just photographers. We were not doing this for a paycheck. But talking to you. And hearing your very well put words is joining dots for you can see where we stepped in the right direction and where we didn't step in some quicksand. Absolutely, yeah. So I already know your answer to this, but I want to hear your wise words on it nevertheless. And then after after this question, you have to ask me a question that you don't know the answer to. Okay, really, Spicer? That's alright. Okay. So I want to know, what are your thoughts on how do you handle failure? Failure? Yeah, not the big you lost money, just the day to day, things that you knew you could do better. But you were not is here's a difference. A business owner thinks something's gonna go wrong. But an entrepreneur expects it to go wrong. So if something doesn't go wrong today, man, what's going on? I'm not pushing hard enough. My goals are not big enough. I'm not impacting enough people. You know, if I don't have one hater today, I didn't say the right things I didn't get through to someone, you know. So when we say failure, like if, if I reached out to five magazines to get featured, and all five of them said, Yes, I didn't reach out to enough people, you know, because I need at least 10 nose, you know, so to know that I actually pushed. And so I think too many people trying to play in these guidelines of like, family and family, it doesn't actually exist, because tomorrow, you wake up a whole new day. Think about this, right? If I was seven years old, I was learning how to ride a bike. If I fell off on Friday, and a great many chances are, I'll be back on that bike on Saturday. And if I fell off again, and broke my arm, chances are as soon as that cost comes up, I'll be back on my bike. And I'll do it again. Do it again. I now don't see it as a failure. I see as I stack my bike. But I'm still willing to learn the bike, right? So for some reason, something's changed in us. And we think like, Oh, my God, like I'm failing because I stopped my bike, and I never want to ride again, or I never want to walk again. I'll never want to do business again. But in reality, it's like, man, you didn't do something enough, if you didn't even put yourself in the realm of getting uncomfortable. Yeah, if you're sitting on the couch all day, and you didn't move, you failed by default. And it's so much worse than if you actually got off the couch and went and did something, something big, something drastic, something that makes you so uncomfortable. So I don't believe in failure, because failure is like a means you've given up or you've stopped. And life is a continuum. So how could I fail? If today I lost everything, but I've still got energy. And tomorrow when I wake up new energy, new ideas, new creativity, like new network, new conversation, there's a new course there's a new YouTube video can watch. There's a new something new opportunity, which means did I really fail? So when I went bankrupt, like, would you look at me right now and say like, Jay, you're a failure. And for some reason, like I believe you probably wouldn't think that about me. But for some reason, we think that about ourselves, we're like, Well, if I went bankrupt, then I'll be a failure. But to whom you only failed if you gave out like it continues. You know, in a couple of years time you won't even remember that time you fell off your your bike and grace your knee because you're already well on your way doing something else. Maybe going on to a marathon or something, you know? Yeah, that's really beautiful. We were actually talking about something similar. Today, we're taking our little guy, Mahi for a walk. And it was really, really neat watching him try and try and try again to like, grab a hold of his toys hanging in front of them. And there's this, like this doggedness there. And we came to the conclusion that as you get older, it's ego. It's just like, it's how you feel it is you don't want to fall over in front of someone else. And so when you do something big, like, for instance, like, I love to, I love failing in front of people. So if I do say, I'm like, I want to hold the biggest workshop in the world, I want 10,000 people to be here. Why do I say that is because I'm like, now I can fail. And I'm gonna fall over in front of people for don't hit that. And I'm like, that's exciting. Because if you let go of your ego, then you can do anything, there's nothing that's going to ever stop you. Because you just get back up again, you do it again, get back up again, hey, if I think if I don't get 10,000 people, this time, it's gonna drive me even harder to get 10,000 People in my next workshop. If I don't do it, then it's gonna drive me even harder. I'm gonna find a new coach, I'm gonna find a new conversation. I'm going to find a new network new people, I'm going to find a new opportunity, I'm going to make it happen. And so with that in mind, because I never gave up, I believe I'm going to hit my goal one day. It's awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. How did you make the decision to bring on other people into your company? What was that process? Like? Because for us, I know that we've dabbled with it a few times. And it's always been like, God, how do you let go of this? Yeah, hard to let go. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's interesting one, but like, the first thing is, you got to admit to yourself that you're not the best at everything. And so many of us, we think we are like, Oh, no one can edit photos like me, no one could like, go to a venue and introduce my business like I can, I can write my emails, like I do now can talk on my podcast like I do. And it's just like a limiting belief thinking we're the best in the world. And no one can do anything. But when you let go of that, you realise that like, Hey, man, maybe the best thing in the world that you have, the skill that you have is, you can actually see the potential in other people. And then you could give other people those roles and empower them to like, make something even better than you could ever imagine. Because chances are, you're holding yourself back, you're holding back your business by not expanding. That's the first reason. Second reason is, I believe it's selfish to start a business and not give back in some way. So why start a business and not give an opportunity to someone like not pay some people like not support a community like what I can I can hire creatives, right now, I've got seven people sitting in the other room. And they are like, art directors, like a videographer, a photographer, like a copywriter. Like they make up their own rolls. I don't even know what they do. But then they come in, and they do it and I empower them to do their thing. Then I'm like, Holy shit, I didn't even know I needed whatever you're making. But like, I'm glad that you're here, because I didn't have the capacity to even think about the ideas that you're thinking about. And now that we have a room of nine or seven minds, or eight minds, it means that I become a superpower because I can leverage of everyone else. And that's the first thing. The second thing is, I didn't go to university, I didn't go to school. But someone once told me that, like if I wanted to be I could be a lawyer, and I could be a doctor. And it's really easy, because all I have to do is I have to start a law firm, and hire lawyers. And then they make all the money, but I make all the money. Because as them charging them out per hour, there's no reason why I can't be at the top of the tower, right? As the same as being a doctor. It's like I could, I could open up a practice if I wanted to. There's nothing stopping me. It's a free world. It's a free economy, I can start one I can hire a doctor a licenced doctor. And that means I can leverage of them. I didn't have to go to uni, and I could still make more money than they do. Does that make sense? So for me, I think about this, I'm like, I didn't go to university to learn videography. So and I don't want to, and I don't want to go to learn Google ads, or to learn copywriting or anything else. But I can leverage someone else's time. There's four years of going there, their expertise, their mastery, their creativity, their ideas, and and use it in my business. It's amazing how our limiting beliefs, although may be common come from very different sources. Because I've been, as you were saying, The SAMSA I was thinking about where did my limiting belief came from, and then also thinking how that's so different, even though Ben and I share that limiting belief. His comes from a very different source. So I guess, how much do you agree with the statement that as an entrepreneur or as a creative, the work on yourself and knowing oneself is like the most important task that you do? Yeah, it's everything. Like without that, like, for instance, like we are the same, right? Or, like if someone's listening right now, like our job as a seven figure entrepreneur, what makes DJI different, he's not more educated, he doesn't have more friends. He's not more well connected. It's not more talented. He's not better looking. He's not better dressed. He's not hasn't got a better car. So with that in mind, it's like, well, what is the difference? Well, maybe John reads a book every four days. Maybe he gets into a new conversation. Maybe he's on a podcast and he gets to learn from people. We get to Talk alongside other people, maybe I need to do those things. And so as you're working on yourself, your own mental blocks, you got to have the humility to understand, like, maybe your way is not the right way, maybe there is a better way and be open to those discussions, listen to people. Because when you listen to people, things open up, and then all of a sudden, you can be challenged on your beliefs. And then you can adapt new beliefs on those challenges. But you just need to be in the right room listening to the right people that are bringing and challenging you on those beliefs. That's, I have so many things to say after this, and so many, just don't want to know which which side do I want to go first? Oh, okay, what about this? Again, I'm gonna start with this one. I really want to go, you got me? Okay? What happens when you disappoint yourself? Is there any time that you disappoint yourself? Every day? There is no, there's not a day that doesn't go past that I didn't disappoint myself or have imposter syndrome or have anxiety because I'm How do you move on? Well, that's doesn't stop me. Because if you have a bigger purpose, then it's like, is this small thing in my way? Or is the big unrealistic goal more important is making the impact more important is hiring people more important? Is teaching someone to make money? Is that more important? Like, there's so many things there? So it's like, can I put my own limiting beliefs, my own self doubt to the side for a bigger cause? And I question myself all the time, like, should I I don't believe I'm making the right moves all the time. I disappoint myself all the time. I didn't jump on this opportunity. I didn't learn something. I didn't go for a walk today, or I didn't, you know, eat correctly. You know, like, there's always something to, like, I could have pushed harder, I could have risk more. Why didn't I that's usually the biggest one. Because if, if I did something I didn't go 100% In I'm so disappointed myself. I'm like, you know, if you weren't 100%. And you probably would have succeeded in that. Because most people don't know this. But I'd say out of out of everyone found success, like big win that I have. I have nine failures, like every time and so my life consists of failing all the time. Always. Every day, something doesn't work. Things just didn't work out. I lost a lot of money. I lose money all the time. You know, and like, I'm comfortable with it. Because I know if I didn't get home, and I was like, what was I doing today? Like I wasn't living? I'm not trying to save money. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to make money. Yeah. Like I'm trying to, like see what I'm capable of. Yeah, I guess I wanted to understand if you thought there was any difference between dealing with failure and dealing with disappointing your own self. Like, I think that for you, because you already see failure as a positive thing as something to look forward to, then wouldn't disappoint, meant to be different. But no, I guess you the answer is to looking at the bigger picture. And then seeing and understanding and remembering what the, what the main goal is. That totally makes sense, because and to all the listeners out there like you, we've got to come to the realisation that it's it is normal. I hate saying the word normal, but it is normal. And we think we're on a ship by ourselves out in the ocean. No one's done it before. And no one feels like we do and no one has imposter syndrome. And no one has ADHD, and no one has ADHD, and no one, you know, we think we are special. But at the end of the day, it's like, man, we all feel like this. It's not the thing in front of us. It's not the problem in front of us is how we react to it. It's how we handle it. And so like, for instance, I COVID happened, right? It's like, it's not the event, but it's the people that kept showing up afterwards. Yeah, but realise that something there and they pivoted and they change, and they adapted and the best serve their clients that they've always going to go further ahead than someone that complains about the problem in front of them. Yeah. Speaking of COVID, like, like, how did that affect you? Oh, I know the answer. I became a millionaire. I've been following you way too long to know the answer. I became a millionaire. That's what happened. There was a few different reasons. In 2019, I pivoted my business into online education. And for one big reason, I felt like the wedding photography industry was in a huge bubble. And I love business and I know business and I could, I could see this right and I did this post and screenshot it. And I sent it out to my friends. But 2019 I wrote out that post to all my friends and I said, Something big is gonna happen in 2020 has to because we're in a bubble right now. And I think a few things I think the economy is going to change. I think we're going to go through a different cycle, we're going to have a challenge ahead. And I also think things are going to change like I think crypto is going to be a big thing to put money in. And so I put all my money into crypto in 2019. Yeah, I changed and pivoted my business. It cost me so much money. People didn't want online courses in 2019. I tell you, so I was going against everything and I was like, I know something's gonna happen. I know. I know it. And I didn't know COVID is gonna happen, but I knew something because that's how market cycles work. Business is predictable. It's always the same, there's always a cycle goes up and goes down. And you can always see when something balloons and there's a bubble. And it's, it's so predictable that it's just the same cycle for the last couple 100 years, right. And so, when it happened, I was like, Oh, here it is no surprise. And so I moved everything around real quick to adapt. And the reason why I wanted to teach business because I knew people gonna need help. You know, I didn't know what the event was, but I knew that people are going to need a lot of help in the next year, because you can see when a bubble comes because people just make money for if they just have Instagram followers, like if they just bought a camera though making money. Now to me, it's like telling me if they've got no skills, and they've got no business knowledge. And if they've got no real world knowledge, they're still making money. That's, that means it's bubble territory. And I was like, so once we get out of this, all these people going to need to learn business, they have to go back backwards, you know, because the people that learn business are going to be able to sustain it and realise that there's a challenge ahead of us. But we can adapt and move and pivot and do whatever we need to do to survive. And so that's why I like my business became super successful, because I set it up six months before the big event, not knowing what it was, obviously. But I was exactly positioned to go like, and here we are, this is exactly what we need to be doing. And we need to help as many people as we can. And so that's why I spent the year mentoring people for free. I helped so many people out, we started a wedding photography Summit, and I paid all the speakers and we charge only $7. You know, for tickets, like we did so many things for the community, we showed up for them when they needed it most. And then they showed up for me, because that's how business works. It's just the way he puts it. It's just amazing. It's so clear. It's just like, boom, here it is. Um, is it talking about? Like I said before, you got to expect expect a problem, right? Yep. Absolutely. Talking about the wedding photography bubble, where do you see wedding photography going in the future? Are there any obvious trends that you have been seeing? I think things going through a big transition right now. And I think it's going to shake out a lot of weak hands that that are not like serious. And I think people are getting more educated down. Like I think people are starting to sort of get more serious about stuff like before it was so like, I'll get instagram followers no more good. But I think like now that the leads are just stopped. People are starting to become very educated and become very smart. And so I think things are changing for the better. And I think wedding photographers are actually insanely resilient. They're insanely talented. They wear all the hats. So they've learned so many things. They just don't know. They needed a bit of finessing, basically, because they've got everything there. And like I think a lot of wedding photographers are going to continue on wedding photography, but they also could become entrepreneurs and do amazing things. Because Because like yourself, like, you know, you started a podcast and do things like that. But not many people do that kind of stuff. In other industries. So yeah, I'm actually really excited. Like, I think I get excited with change, like I love change. And when people tell me like I can wait for things to go back to normal, and like this is new normal, you're gonna die, your business will die if you think things go back to normal, right? Because that's the old way of thinking. And so like if you haven't adapted and realised that like, Hey, this is normal today is normal. Like, if you're not doing business today, your business is dying. You can't wait for something because you got to get out innovated. It's like someone else is going to take your market share someone else's marketing right now someone else is expanding. While you're contracting. You got to understand that right? Yeah. So one of the reasons why my business did really well, last year is because every workshop stops, every conference stopped. I don't know why, like every all the awards stopped, like, all education for photographers stopped in their tracks, and I couldn't believe it was uh, why are they doing that? And so what did I do? I spent hundreds of 1000s of dollars on marketing when I had no money, because I was like, I need to take market share. Well, everyone contracts you need to expand. Because right now while everyone's contracting, they missed the point of like, this is when everyone needs help and where you guys all didn't help. The person that was there that helps throughout that time is always going to be on top. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Yeah, we were trying to do something similar with a collaboration and Canada conference and chill and was fantastic connecting with so many people. And you came for one of the conference and chill. I did. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's where I first time heard you actually talking and, you know, was like, Oh, this is fantastic. So no, absolutely so correct. And so you bringing back the idea that creativity is the art of seeing and then solving problems. Being able to notice that there is an issue, cropping up, having the foresight for that, and then being able to solve it in a in a very novel way. The more that you brainstorm the more that you use your creativity, like creative He is like a muscle and people don't realise that. And so like I flex it every single day, I make sure I'm working it out, you know, like, I listen to a book for like an hour and a half a day, or go for a walk or brainstorm a journal. I'm always learning something new, I'm listening to my coach, I'm signed up to a course I'm doing something. Because I know that creativity doesn't just come because after a while, once you start brainstorming and stuff, you start seeing new solutions. And then after a while, after years, it becomes second nature and you see a solution to every problem that's in front of you. But it's not always like that, especially when you're first starting out. And maybe you haven't, like practice enough. But I think like after a while, yeah, like you, you will get so strong with your creativity that people will be like, I don't even know where it gets ideas from or her. How does she get those ideas? How she, how she even creating this? How is this happening? Yeah, right. Because that person is is like flexing that creative muscle? Yeah. And for me, it's always I, I cannot accept that when people say there's no solution to this. I just cannot accept that. It just becomes like a whole challenge game in my head like, nope, nope, nope, nope. You said the wrong thing. My friend, I'm not going to be able to sleep right now till I find the answer to this. So talking about you journaling, and doing so many things to keep your mind active and taking care of yourself so that creativity flows through you. How do you perceive time? Time is really interesting. I say time is energy. And so my time is based on energy. So it's it's no longer like based on what time of day it is, or how much time I've got up for a podcast episode. Like for instance, a lot of people will say like our podcast episode, I don't have enough time. But what I say is like a podcast episode, do I have enough energy? And if I do, then I should schedule that in? Yeah, if I don't, then I probably shouldn't. And so I protect my energy. And that correlates to the time that I have. So I think a lot of people, they believe they have no time. My people all the time. They say they've got no time. But if I challenge them and say like, what are you doing next? What's in the next five minutes for you? What impact are you making? Like, what have you scheduled? What have you scheduled for Thursday? And if they don't know, then I know that our control was just like having a bank account not knowing how much is in? Yep. So yeah. And so like a lot of people, they are willing to throw up their hands and say, I have got no time where someone else could be a prime minister. Maybe she's a mom, full time mum and full time running the country and don't know everything else. So it's like, how's that person got ties? Or like maybe maybe someone like Elon Musk or something with like, two of the biggest companies in the world with like, I don't know what he's got five kids or something. You know, there's so many things going on. Like he's got time. Oh, you find excuses as answers when you want to, like, oh, he has such and such a help and stuff. But we're not willing to look, everyone gives it to me. Yeah. You're not willing to look inside and really figure out what is stopping you. And what is keeping you stuck. And as at a certain place we were still living in in the beach house. When I saw you speaking in clubhouse, and you were walking? I think you're walking your dog and was really early in the morning in Melbourne. And you were answering these questions on clubhouse. And I remember going up to Ben and saying, we're starting to go we are we are going on walks. We're not even helping anyone but we are going on walks because we were in that state of like, oh, I don't have time. And I remember hearing you and going we need to go for walks. Man, why are we say we don't have time we have time we're sitting here, just sulking, we need to go. And so you don't know. But I didn't even hear what you were saying. But at that point, just the idea of you walking and helping people that early in the morning I think was six in the morning in Melbourne really pushed us to start this health regime that we have started now. And suddenly even being new parents and running businesses and podcasts and YouTube and all of that found ourselves having a lot of time. So thank you for that. Jay. Yeah, you can find so much time. The funny thing is when someone tells me they've got no time, they usually tell me on like on my Facebook page or something or my Instagram page, and they're commenting, and like my initial reaction is always like, well, if you got time to write this comment on someone else's page, like you're probably scrolling Instagram, How'd you even get here? Yeah, like you've got time you've just wasted, you know, like we spend right now. There was a new survey that came out like a few years ago, the average American spent seven hours watching TV but today, they spent 74 hours watching TV for four hours Mindlessly scrolling social media. So that's eight hours a day, right? And then like how much sleep is there and how much commuting is there? Like there's so much so, of course we are under the illusion that we don't have time but really like if we, if we protect if time is really worth more than money like a lot of people say then and then we need to really protect it. We need to think about like what if you don't have that much time and you never get it back? Like what are you actually doing with it? Are you making an impact doing something worthwhile with that time. It's one thing, hearing what you're saying and understanding and feeling that yes, what whatever you're saying is correct. But I think it's more important, whoever is listening to know that. If you are going to listen to Jai saying what he's saying, or hear us saying what we say about creativity in time, you have to understand that it becomes difficult to practice that when you're part of the system. If you don't change radically, nothing changes in seeking one piece of advice doesn't change everything in your life, it is a bottoms up approach with you the way you've lived your life, all your life, you've taken decisions, risks, how you embrace failure, it all informs how you think about time. So I think it's really important and I'm feeling I'm feeling it's even more important after talking to you to, to give ourselves a break, and not try to conform to what society wants of us, or what people wants of us and find our own tune and rhythm. Because once we figured that out, we'll be able to break that system and see, oh, my gosh, I do not need to be this mindless drone of the system. There are options for me, there are other avenues that can be explored. I feel like this is really important to say right now because a lot of people will feel very energised listening to you will feel like oh my god, they can conquer the world. But within two or three hours, might start feeling that energy diminish or feel like, Ah, this was not for me. Maybe I can do it, not me. But I think it's possible for everyone. But it requires a radical transformation. And that comes from understanding where you're at right now what blocks you have, and speaking with somebody else like you, you can't solve all your problems yourself. Like Jay said, he has seven minds sitting in the other room. And with his eighth mind, they're they're creating magic in this world. And having Jaya as a coach or somebody else that you look up to, and working through your roadblocks and things that have been stopping you and pulling you back is so important. And then suddenly, you'll see that everything else that he's saying will become a regular practice rather than this. One thing that is energising you for five minutes, and then she takes away your energy. Am I do you agree with that? Absolutely agree. And like one thing that you said is like, it's it's also for some of us, but like it's, it's for all of us black once we make the decision if you if you want to be successful. The reason why you're not right now is because you haven't decided that you want to be like you haven't actually said, it's not a master. It's like well, maybe I want to be but like once you make it your duty, like it's your master, and you change your mindset around that. And then you'll start journaling, you'll start waking up early or go for walks, you will find what you need to find. You know, like so many people, like, you know, I pay for a business coach, and sometimes I pay upwards of $20,000 to someone for like, you know, a few hours, right? And not once do I say like, oh, like it's too expensive or something I say like, oh, find the money. Don't worry about that. Because I'm obsessed with getting to the next level where someone is going to hold themselves back like, oh, you know, 3000 for a cause? No way, man too expensive. Not for me. Cause is not for you like and if that's not for you, you also can expect to be booking work that's at that range as well. Because, man, it's not for you. Yeah, if that's too expensive for you. That's that's the scarcity that you live in. So you have to make the decision of like you want it. Yeah. And I it's really important to know that we are not entitled to success or happiness or other things, we have to work for them. And every single day in every minute, actually, we are making decisions. The decision the Day of Decision is not going to come in future or tomorrow. It's right now, as you're listening to this podcast, as you go about your day doing things. You're making tiny, tiny decisions that are going to impact your life in a huge way. Oh my gosh, as is. I love the way how you can take in a complex nebulous idea and so succinctly Peruggia, really well done. What is you were talking about reading books what what is one book that you're reading these days then I read so many books, it's actually kind of crazy. So it's really hard to it's really hard to remember any of them and like always say the same books over and over but I like read self development books right now. I'm reading books on like, public speaking. I do a lot of that. haven't found any good ones yet, but I listen to everything because I know there's something in there for me. Yeah. And so like I don't say any you know, reading a book is not ever a waste of time, like I actually think is gold. I can't believe people wouldn't do it but people don't do it and so then they won't get the success. Others will get the get out innovated, right. So there's actually studies shown like people that make over six figures in the US or have a title of like CEO or their high executive or something, on average rate about 52 books a year. So these are high income earners, low income earners, on average, read one book a year. Now there's a there's a 50 to one disadvantage for them, because they're not even willing to show up and like, do something like that, that's, they're probably gonna cost you$15 or $10 a book per week. So because they got no time, but the executive has more time, and they donate more time to charities, and they donate more money, and they help more people, and they have a better work life balance and everything. They read more. And so when you look at that, it's like maybe we're just not prioritising our own success, you know? Is that then one myth about creativity that you are dying to bust? I guess like one myth is when people say, I'm not creative. I always think that's pretty funny when someone says, I'm not creative, Lucky joy. Yeah. Yeah, like as if we're all born with our creativity, and then we have to learn it. But I think you start unlearning creativity. Because if you said a statement like that, then you've made it your own truth. Yes. And even though you are creative, even just saying that statement was creative, there's a creative way of putting it. You can't identify it. And so you've given yourself this truth, and you've even created a limiting belief. Maybe it's not for you, maybe you can't do it, maybe not as creative as other people. And that means you won't go after it, you won't practice or try something new, because you've given yourself some limitations. So I think that's like probably one of the biggest things around creativity, also, like the other one is, um, I think people don't think businesses creative. Or like pricings, creative their books, or creative men. Like if I went to an account, I want to find the most creative account out there. You know what I mean? Like, I want to find someone that's like, oh, Joe, we could do this. And we could do that. I could change the numbers here. And we could buy this. And we could do that. And you could save on tax, you know, I want to find someone who's creative in all aspects. And so if you are the type person, it's like, oh, man, like businesses business, I wouldn't do business with friends. I wouldn't do business that I love, or like, you know, people say all these limits, things like I would never, never do business with someone that you like, or something cool with a family member. I'm like, Man, I'll do business with anyone you know, like, especially friends. You know, I like, I love my friends. I love my family. Of course, I want to help them in some way. Yeah. And so I think, I just think, I think business. And the reason why I keep sort of really pushing this point home is because it is creative, it's insanely creative. And there's actually no part of it that I'm not creative with. Everything can be innovated, everything can be changed, everything can be done better for everyone. Yeah, it's you so correct. When you said that we first bought when you said that we all are creative, I want to again, bring this one home. For anyone who's thinking Amen, you just say that it's hocus pocus woods. It isn't. I mean, now, the studies have shown that when you're exercising, if you say to yourself that this exercise is actually helping me lose weight, I'm going to be fit or whatever your goal is, if you actually repeat that. And if you tell yourself that you do get maximum benefit from the set exercise instead, if you were just going on or no, if it's going to do anything, I'm just gonna run, but I don't know if it's going to do anything. It's not going to bring the same effect that it was going to bring, it will bring some effects because of course, mechanics, that's a great analogy, right? And like, just just play home on that analogy. It's like if you went for a run and said, I'm going to get a six pack from this run, then the whole time that you're running, you're thinking about your stomach and you're activating those core muscles and guess what happens? You probably get a six pack, it's the same business if you're thinking you're going out then you like I'm gonna make some money. I've got some goals, unrealistic goals, and you're journaling every day. So you're looking at them every day, not just like at New Year's like I'm talking goals down every day. After a while, man, you're concentrating on those things. Guess what happens? It grows. Yeah, it the mind. Body connection is so important. I remember as a child in this painting homework that I had. And as I was just about done, and the black paint smeared all over it and my I was crying and my mom came and she I don't know she was constantly wiping my tears and saying nothing is gone wrong. Why are you already believing something has gone wrong, just because the paint has dropped on it. And she would keep wiping my tears and keep working magic with her fingers. She was not even using brush and out came this painting. With the black smeared on it. I don't know how she made this but the mountains were black and the sky head. She builds some colour back. You could see some clouds in the background. It was so stunning. And now whenever I'm doing some art project for someone, I'm constantly repeating that in my head. This is going to be so I'm going to love this, oh, my God is going to turn out so amazing. Rather than tell myself, I don't know how this is gonna turn out. And not only do I have an amazing experience actually creating it, because I'm having fun thinking and being positive, it actually does turn out, I always surprised myself. On the flip side of that, too, I find a really great creative tool is that when you have those mistakes, they generally turn into something that you completely didn't think was going to be a thing. Yeah, of course. I mean, I was trained as a graphic designer, and like, all the time you do something before you could control z, that you look at it again, you like, wait a minute, that's really cool. You know, how did I do that? And that completely informs everything moving forward. Yeah. And the fact the second point that you made that business, running a business is actually a very creative activity. And in fact, whatever you do in life, you are being creative, and you have the potential to be creative at it, but you are being creative at it by finding solutions in your own novel way. And wherever you're doing that in whatever whichever capacity you are doing that keep doing it. Because like Jay said, creativity is a muscle. And you need to practice it every day to make it big, bulky, and like pretty shiny. You know what other muscles, objectives? Are you so we've reached a Ben, do you have more questions? You just like writing so much? I actually answered a tonne of what I had written down without having to prompt it. So yeah, thanks, man then has been on the other side, just scribbling away. Appeared has just run out of battery. So I'm sure whoever if you're listening to this, and you were not scribbling all this amazing wisdom that was coming out of Jay, hear this again, and take a paper and pen and make some notes. I'm going to go inside and create a post I would say is create a paycheck kills creativity. That is that is happening. Yeah. So we've come to that part of the podcast where we do quick questions. So ready? Quick answers. All right, what has been one game changing advice you've got? Listen to those that have done what you want in your life. And you don't really need to listen to those that haven't done something that you want in your life. So just be wary of who you actually take advice from. And if it's for your best interest. That's fantastic. I want I needed to hear that. So thank you. Are you a morning person or a night owl? morning person? For sure. Okay, and what talent do you wish you had that you don't have? Oh, geez. Like, every time I guess, like what sounds i wish i i wish i was much better at public speaking. That's why I'm reading this books right now. Right? I wish I could really like move people with my messaging. Like a lot more. I wish I could connect deeper. I wish I could. I mean, I'm saying wish but I hate the word witch because I'm going to make it happen. I suppose. I'm saying wish. But really, it's just on my to do list. I think, Jay, what is happening with the seven people out in the other room? And you is that you need to put some mirrors in the office? Because I think you've done that. It's already done. It's tech. Yeah, I'm sure you're always yes, you can do but you have moved us in. You're an incredible public speaker and you've moved out as we are already we came into this room. Like we said before we started recording that we were in this really feeling like energy has been sapped out of us. We're feeling we were not in a good place before we started recording this podcast. And both Ben and I are just like so energised. Awesome. I am selfishly wanting to end the podcast so I can give my husband a hug right there. Because you've definitely energised us. So I think you've ticked that one, you need to think of another answer, which we will ask you the next time you have we have you on this podcast. So what are you going to do right after this interview, I've been suffering from really bad hay fever today, so I didn't really get to sleep much last night. I've actually got another podcast coming up in a little bit. And then I'm quickly going to go and watch some of the costs like I'm I'm running my own Facebook ads right now. And we're doing for like the wedding photography summit that's coming up. We got so much going on. It's crazy. So I'm the one doing like the all the ads and stuff and I don't know ads, like I didn't learn this stuff. So you know, I'm putting through like$100,000 on these ads, and I've got to make sure that they work and yeah, I'm literally gonna sit there and knock it out, see what I have to do to make them work. And I know there's a solution in my problem. I just don't know how to get there yet. So I'm excited for the challenge. Fantastic. And finally the three qualities that got you where you are today. Persistence, like yep, persistence, stamina and empathy. Cool answer. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast J and saying yes to us. Thanks for having me guys seen fantastic you've energised us. And thank you from the bottom of our hearts. And we can't wait for people to comment and tell us how much this has changed them. Thanks to the listeners as well for taking an hour and 20 minutes of your day to to listen to us talk about creativity. Yep. Appreciate you guys. So there you have it peeps. I was happy as I am right now. Once all this is over minus i just grabbing a notepad and hitting that play button one more time because there was some gems in there for sure. Thank you so much for joining us today and for liking and subscribing to the creative myth or whatever it is you do, reviewing whatever on Spotify or whatever platform you're listening to this on. Now is also the time I remind you to head over to Instagram and hit that follow button on the creative myth account. You can find out ahead of time who's going to be on next creative guest hear snippets of our upcoming episodes and get creative prompts and kickstart in quotes being directly to your feet each morning. That's all for now. Thank you for listening. You have been awesome. We'll see you right here for our next episode. And until then, stay tuned. Stay Read and be creative.