The Creative Myth
The Creative Myth
Valerie Fernandez - Finding Authenticity in your Art
In this episode of The Creative Myth, we talk with renowned underwater couple and wedding photographer Valerie Fernandez. She is a beautiful, highly empathic and creative soul who has found her voice in her art and now aims to help others find an authentic reason behind their creations.
Valerie works closely with her couples to create absolute magic – she describes the drive behind the images that she creates in four words: intimacy, connection, passion and vulnerability.
Some of the topics we cover are:
Creating intimacy in your portraits.
Understanding your surroundings
Your self-image vs your relationship image.
Dealing with a loss of your creative output.
Why plagiarising others' work is only hurting your creative self.
How Creativity is born of failures and constraint.
And what you can learn by taking in an underwater session while 7 months pregnant!
Valerie on Instagram: @valeriefernandezphotography
Check out her website: Salt & Shores Photography
Follow us on Instagram for insider content: @thecreativemyth
People mentioned in this episode:
Tinted Photography
Chuy Photo
Hello beautiful people and welcome to the creative myth, the podcast that attempts to inspire the uninspired by unfolding breaking down and distilling that wonderful force of nature and or nurture known as creativity. Our goal to bust the myth that creativity is the birthright of the few. In each biweekly episode, we find a new and engaging self-confessed creative and strike up a dialogue. Otherwise surgenor And I sit down and discuss a topic that has something to do with creativity, and how it relates to our roles as artists, nomads and parents, we track down some of the most amazing creatives out there and find out just what creativity means to them what they do to encourage it in their lives and how you might channel it into your passions. Today, we're talking to Valerie Fernandez, a great friend of ours and an intimate couple and elopement photographer based in beautiful Vanuatu. Valerie has made waves around the world with her incredible underwater couple sessions, and has a tonne to say about her thought processes and experiences while in the water with a couples Today's episode is our longest one ever. So buckle up. And we'll dive into topics like understanding your surroundings and creating intimacy and your portraits self image versus your relationship image dealing with the loss of creative output, why plagiarising other's work is only hurting your creative self, how creativity is born of failure and constrained. And what you can learn by taking on an underwater session. Well, seven months pregnant. So let's get into it.
Unknown:Now we got all right, we are recording. You are on the red lightning going. Yes, it is. Awesome.
Sirjana Singh:How are you, Valerie?
Unknown:I am good. I am good. Thank you, Susanna. I am actually super psyched to be catching up with you guys. I have been missing that as
Sirjana Singh:have as have we been a long time? Yeah,
Unknown:we've been busy campus over here. But you know about that? Yeah. Well, many things happened. You only had a baby. And I only had a baby since. Yeah. No biggie. tiny things? Uh huh. Tiny little things. Yeah.
Sirjana Singh:They give us so much time and energy, don't they?
Unknown:Yeah, they do. We should be grateful because it feels like life was just empty before, at least now. You know?
Sirjana Singh:Oh, my gosh. I mean, we have a podcast, all about parenting and creativity. This was the last minute we were driving Ben and I and we thought, oh my gosh, we should do a podcast with Valerie about parenting and creativity. But probably too late to just spring that on her right now. So let's just talk about creativity in general today. And then we have to get you back. And then talk about parenting and creativity.
Unknown:Anytime that would be awesome. Awesome.
Sirjana Singh:The reason we wanted you on a podcast, the biggest reason is it's always fun chatting with you. And so it's a golden rule of any podcast is to have fun while you do it.
Unknown:It doesn't hurt that you're an insanely amazing creative person. At some point,
Sirjana Singh:yeah. You are amazing. You've I don't know how many people know. But you've recently written an amazing guide on intimacy and how to capture it in photographs. And every page that we turn, is blowing our minds. It's beautiful, not just the words you've written, and the insights you've given, but also the photography that comes with it. And it's so amazing that you have added, like, what lens you were using and what was your focal length and all of that there. So you just like, get an insight into Valerie's mind.
Unknown:Thank you guys, thank you so much. I mean this coming from you, you know, it means the world like literally the world.
Sirjana Singh:The respect for creativity is mutual here. Valerie, your work is phenomenal. We want to just deep dive in all pun intended into your mind when it comes to underwater photography. Because it's such a it's such a niche that you've when you see your work, it feels like this is how you see life. You know, it doesn't feel like you actually go from living on land, and then being underwater and creating your art. It just feels like that's where she lives must be her living room right on the corner of where she took the keys. With those photos.
Unknown:Well, it pretty much is that literally I mean the ocean is like 50 metres down my house. Right? That's pretty much
Sirjana Singh:okay, so it does translate the fact that you know, the fact that you're so ease with where you create it definitely translates in your work and it makes the viewer feel like comfortable. Oh feels like they can be part of it. For somebody who cannot swim me, every time I look at the photos that you create, it feels like I could, I could have been there. So your couples are so relaxed. And in in in the moment, you obviously are capturing all of that perfectly. Thank you.
Unknown:Actually, you know, what's funny is that I think that feeling that you're describing, it's coming from the fact that my personal life and who I am as a person is actually completely when I do underwater photography, who I am as a person, and what my life looks like every day is completely aligned with who I am as a photographer. And I get that exact same feeling when I look at your work, because everything about you, it transpires adventure, when you take those photos in that, you know, in those Insane Places and scenery, you feel that too, I feel that, you know, even if I was scared of height, or even if I was freezing cold, if you were leading, you would still be able to lead me into creating epic photos. And that's because who you are completely 100% aligns with how you take photos and how you approach your art and your photography, I think when it comes to creativity, a lot of people are just chasing somebody else's creativity. And there's just no more alignment between who they are, and how they approach their photography. So I think as long as you're aligned, whatever you photograph, and however you photograph, it is going to convey that feeling of easiness and comfort because yourself as a photographer, you're not pushing yourself to do something that actually isn't completely 100% You like genuinely do, right. So yeah, I mean, I do understand the water, I have such a such a really complex connection to the water into the ocean, and it goes way back. And it's beautiful, and it's dark all at once. It's everything. And so when I invite couples into this environment, I totally know how to lead them. Because it's just natural, it comes to me naturally, if I had to lead people into a mountain session or a desert session, I would very much probably not be able to achieve what I'm achieving underwater. Right. I could do very beautiful pictures, but I couldn't really convey to them. That feeling you know, that you've got when you know, an environment. Totally. Yeah, that's really important, though.
Sirjana Singh:So you that is such an amazing insight that you had. Because as you understand that sometimes as artists, we are unable to see what we are creating, because we are creating mirrors around us. And so whenever we see it's us, and after a while, it's nice to connect with another creative who can then show you who you are, because you just surrounded by many mirrors of you. And yesterday, actually, we had an adventure session where like you said, adventure is such a essential ingredient in our lives. After being parents that outdoor adventure part of us that moving and travelling the world, since pandemic as well had slowed down or had has been so stagnant. That yesterday, it felt like we could see what we create. Because it has been such a distance between, you know, our true selves and what we get to live that yesterday at every moment. I am sure a couple was feeling it more. And we were feeling it. We were so it was like we could see the other side, you know, on the other side of the curtain. Yeah. What was happening? It was fantastic. Yeah, it was a completely different experience. We could see how we were thinking we could see what makes us, you know, do certain things and take certain photos. Yeah. And we created such different work yesterday. But when we came back both of Ben and I were like, did we do enough? Because we didn't do a lot of what we'd normally do. You know, we just kept saying to people enough and then reliving it and reimagining it. We were like oh my god, we did quite a bit here. We were
Unknown:there for like well into the nearly 1130 at night. Yeah, it was pretty amazing, though. It was probably good enough guys. Yeah. Very likely did enough. Well, I think really what you're describing is that you have missed adventuring. You really have missed it because what you what you bring to your couples. I almost want to say that the art and the photos are a bonus because what you're really bringing to them is your sense of adventure. You're just taking them by the hand and you're like let me show you Oh What adventure can be like just the same way that I'll grab someone by the hand and be like, let me show you how nurturing the feeling of the water around, you can beat let me show you what it can do to your body image. Let me show you all the ways that it can change your connection and your communication to your partner. I think, yeah, it's just,
Sirjana Singh:I have a question here. I cannot, you can see my mouth. It's just opening wide like making you stop. Like, I want to ask this question. And after I ask you this question, we are going to take this a step, take a step back and start from the beginning about you and water and creativity. But first, this question. One of the things that you mentioned in your guide, is that when you approach an intimate session, or you want to create intimate photos or those moments with your couple, it's good to mirror the feeling of intimacy, you know, don't go in with heavy gestures and flailing arms, basically like me. Yeah, pretty much just you but basically don't do surgeon as you walk in the door. So as we were driving yesterday to our couples, Airbnb, I told Ben, maybe we should try this. You know, she says, Yeah, let's let's try that. It was Ben was very good. following your advice. I literally as he dropped me at the door. I told him I'm like, Okay, so now, so now intimate face, like, calm yourself down. Stepped out and everyone. So yeah, okay. Sorry, guys.
Unknown:She caught herself about two minutes later. Oh, good. Yeah, no, but it was neat. Because I mean, we were doing an in home session at the beginning of the day. So it kind of felt like it needed that vibe.
Sirjana Singh:You know, I what I want to understand is, how much of that of who you are affects the art we create? Is it possible sometimes to create for somebody else?
Unknown:Hmm. Honestly, I don't think so. Huh? Okay. It's, it's, I don't I don't think so. And I don't even I don't even think that it should be that way. Because I think that the people who are drawn to what you do, they are drawn to what you do, because on some cosmic energetic level is something what you do resonates with themselves with their even with their sense of intimacy, because actually, when I was writing to guide, somebody that came up, and I was actually thinking about you guys, and your photography, that is so I mean, I could recognise your photo in 10,000 photos, easy, like, easy, without, without a doubt, it would take me literally a second to figure out this one is Ben and see Janas because this is how this is how mature your identity is, in terms of art. And even if you're not a photographer, even if your eyes not trained to recognise, you know, the composition, or the colours, tones or whatever, there's just something that draws people to that. And, and in the guide, I explained what, what different kinds of intimacy there are, you know, that is that has nothing to do with physical intimacy, or with sex or anything. And you guys are absolutely phenomenal at capturing experiential intimacy. It's like when people go on a session with you, and you photograph them outdoors, it's like forever and ever and ever, in the rest of their story, they will be up this mountain, they will own that sunrise, and they will own that sunset, and they will own that stereo sky forever. And it belongs to them as individuals, but mostly because of how you photograph them. It belongs to them as a couple, you know, it's that way of saying we're growing all together, we're making all the memories that count together. And this is super intimate, because, you know, if we're lucky enough to live through our 80s and 90s, how many chances do we have at having someone by our side that is, you know, you can turn to them and be like, Hey, do you remember that sunrise? And just thinking about that gives me goosebumps. So. So, to go back to your question, I really don't think that you should actually try to capture something that you don't necessarily profoundly resonate with, whether that's as a human as a partner, or as a photographer, because I think even creativity, the way that I see it, it's So language creativity, I think it comes from a failure. It's a failure of language to express some words or some feelings. You know, it's a failure of education to explain some of the things we feel whether that's love or adventure, or, you know, that we've a religious feeling or anything, but I really feel that creativity is what returned to when everything else has failed at helping us understand. And I think that the people we call creatives were just basically relentless people. You know, we see something that's beautiful, but it's not enough that it's beautiful. We want to almost dissect it and be like, what makes you beautiful, you know, and if we can't find a word, then we're going to turn to music, or we're going to turn to painting or we're going to turn to photography, because we're just trying to find a language that allows us to, to grab this, you know, that that intangible thing, whether it's life, whether it's a feeling, whether it's a relationship, but because I think it's a language, because I think it comes from a really deep desire and need to express something that's within, then if you're trying to express something else, probably if you're as good at photography, as you are, you can succeed technically. But is it going to have the same depth and the same power as what you create when it actually comes from within? I doubt I doubt that. You go podcast over that's it. Yeah. We just partly just figured out what it is.
Sirjana Singh:It is such I am ashamed to say that I forgot how insightful and amazing and fun and just calming and wonderful it is to chat with you. It's been a whole year as you were talking. It was like my gosh, it's been a whole year we
Unknown:had the last time we chatted was in a car park when we were Queenstown. Is that right? No. Last time I chatted
Sirjana Singh:with the baby shower. Yeah, it was a baby shower. Yeah,
Unknown:yeah. And what's insane is that I think most women who were on that chat, except for the women from your family have all had babies. He had a baby. And yeah, that's insane.
Sirjana Singh:It is it is everywhere. Yeah. But no, not to take away from the profound way you explained what creativity was. Because when we had briefly talked about this podcast, and you said, you mentioned that creativity is comes from a failure failures. I was like, Oh, my gosh, we are going to have such opposite views on that we're going to discuss it's going to be amazing. But that's exactly what I wrote when I was thinking about what creativity was because I went back to my first creative endeavour, which was poetry. And that came from not being able to express myself the way I wanted to, and the words would inform and, you know, things didn't make sense once they came out of my mouth. And then I had to just scribble something down was like, ah, there was this release and sense of relief that you get that no, if nobody else I understand myself. Okay, let's take it back to the beginning. Yeah, we
Unknown:let it get a little way. Get away on us a little bit there. Yes. Yeah. Beautiful. Sorry about that. No.
Sirjana Singh:Lead. Okay, so starting with the starting, starting at the start. How come photography
Unknown:accidentally? Uh huh. Because really, if you had come to me a couple of years ago, and told me that this would be my thing, I would have really not seen that coming at all. I'm not one of those photographer who had a camera in their hands when they were like five years old. And it was love at first sight. No, that did not happen with me, I had after my studies, I actually secured a very well paid good position. And my passion was for travel. And so with this new job, I figured, you know what, I've got domains not only to travel, but also to like, buy myself a great camera in order to capture those troubles and, you know, actually captured them with purpose and intent and not just snapping shots here and there with my phone. Yeah, this is this is how it started. And and the thing is, I tend to be a little bit obsessive with things like when I start I just need to, I can't live it. I feel you, you know. Yeah. Just like, I need to dig and dig it, dig it, dig it, dig in and and just know what I'm Doing so that's what I did with my photography. And somehow it started really soothing parts of me that I didn't even know, needed soothing, you know, all of a sudden travelling and hiking and taking a moment to pause and wait for the light, to align, and to just look look like something that would trigger an emotional reaction inside of me. It just started soothing. A part of me that was lonely, it's like before, you know, I might have felt lonely, but all of a sudden, I was alone, but I wasn't lonely anymore. And so that's when it just started becoming something more. And then how did I move to photographing couples, and weddings, I say couples and weddings, because to me photographing couples actually comes first. Before photographing weddings. Well, Ali, and I got married, and there was no decent wedding photographer on the island. And I had no idea at that time that actually flying a photographer that you love, like tinted photography to your special day, I did not know this was a thing, I had no clue whatsoever. And the result is that we barely have photos of our wedding day at all. Like really, we might have five of them somewhere. And that's it. And now the thing is that immediately after we got married, things got really dark, like really dark. About a year after that my oldest sister passed away. And that was definitely a before after moment in my life. And then, not long after Morgan passed away, Ali and I actually hit a wall and separated. And we were apart for 18 months. And through those 18 months, we really pushed ourselves like beyond anything, anything that I ever thought could be possible, humanly speaking, and for someone else even more. And, and I just it's going back to what we were saying before I just had that, that huge thing inside of me. And it needed to find a way to get out, he needed to find a way to get out. And what I didn't want was to, I didn't want to go dark, I didn't want to I didn't want to take all these events that were traumatic and sad and many things. But really, it just made me think, you know, it made me think so much about life, about people about love relationships, about being in a couple. And what it actually means because when Ali and I met, we were 22 years old and 23 years old, we were babies and we were just so full of, you know, we're gonna be different, and it's gonna be good, it's gonna be fine. I mean, we're gonna work at our feet, and then all of a sudden, everything comes crumbling. And you've really got two options as either you call it quit, and you know, save whatever memories you can save and wish the other well on his or her journey, or you just decide to hold on to that person and, and see where we go from there like, you know, just draw a new path for the relationship for the love and also for who we are, who we become as people as partners. And so that's when that's why I wrote a book about intimacy. That's why it is so profoundly important to me. And I think that this is why it comes so naturally in my photography, it's because there's one thing in our industry that I feel is lacking. It's that honesty about how difficult relationships can be and how much courage it actually takes. You know, I mean, we we photograph all the rainbows and butterflies, we photograph the wedding days we photograph the beauty we photograph the moment when people are most in love. But even that is not 100% honest, because if you think about it, a lot of traditional weddings, they come with some kind of stress, they come up with some kind of tensions. And so to photograph this as if this is only good stuff, I don't think that it's actually completely accurate and completely true. And I don't think that because it's not completely 100% Or happy bubbles. I don't think that this is something to shy away from no think that there is a beautiful story to be told about two people managing their fears together managing their stress together managing debt The unknown together managing everybody that's around them together, this is a beautiful story to tell. And I don't feel like there is enough room for that honesty in, in our industry, and
Sirjana Singh:I think that is because it's a very complex thing to navigate will vary,
Unknown:every couple has their own, sort of, like, some people are more approachable than others when it comes to discussing like how
Sirjana Singh:not just only approaching them and how they are going to but just discussing it as well. It's not a clear, a too bad like, you smile, you're happy, you tears you're sad, you know, it's not as simple as that. So for example, I have been a very strong proponent of who we are, should be completely transparent to our muses, and to people we create with. Because there shouldn't be a wall that we put in front of us, which will allow the other person to also, you know, manage their own wall. And as they, as they figure out that not the right word I'm looking for, but as they Yeah, well figure out their own wall and piece by piece, take it away or build it up more, they get a deep understanding of who they are. And like you said, our our way of doing anything is experiential. And so that's sort of experience. So one of the things we were very aware of both as a couple of photographers was to not hide, at least from my side was always the case that never to hide our fights in front of another couple that were photographed. We're having
Unknown:a disagreement, they often find out. Find out pretty quickly. Yes,
Sirjana Singh:I have suffered a lot because of the rainbows and butterflies and beautiful sceneries and Bollywood romances and I suffer from it. To this day. They love does not satisfy me because I have been spoon fed Bollywood, and I have taken it as my bowl of Coco Pops, knowing fully well, it's not good for your health, in Ethernet with like six spoons at the same time. I still suffer from it. Sometimes things are all good. And I'm like, but you didn't sing for me. I think me just send you a video of Shahrukh Khan, please, please have a look. I still suffer from it even as a 130. How old am I 35. Wow, that's a 35 year old adult, I still suffer from it. So I love showcasing myself as truly as possible in front of our couples. And we have had that feedback from them, where they have the sigh of relief, and they just let us know. Oh my gosh, you're just like us. Yeah. And it's an amazing moment of connection. Because there are times frivolous as
Unknown:me particularly on like multiple day sessions, where there'll be a point when that facade comes down for all of us. Yeah, from either our side or their side. At which point it's like, oh, cool. Yeah, we're just some normal people. Yeah, you know, it's not all rainbows and butterflies. Yeah. And this will also just, it must be such a huge relief for them. Because I'm thinking about what our industry is right now, at least on social media. It's probably putting a tremendous amount of pressure on couples, because they love Israel, their love is beautiful. In all of its honesty and reality, but when you see those photos and all of the other couples out there, they look so perfect. You could gosh, I do not fit into that perfection. I mean, my life is chaos. Most of the time, I love my partner time, I would gladly rip his head off. Yeah, and you know, so it's just having having that honesty to put pressure off. Because it's like we twisted to the extent where as wedding a couple of photographers, we should have everything about love figured out and our relationships should be perfect and amazing all of the time. And our couples they just become intimidated because you know that it goes to I'm really convinced that there is such a thing as a body image. And there is the same thing about a relationship image. We've got this perception of who we are.
Sirjana Singh:laughing I'm clapping I think we need to take a you need to underline this. This is so amazing what you're saying right now. This is Oh my god, this is fantastic. You're so right. Okay, I have underlined it for you and carry on. Sorry to break your train of thought
Unknown:It's, it's just you know, if physically we're trying to give representation to all sizes and body shapes and skin colours, and whatever everything, then there should be room for all kinds of relationships to be portrayed. And not just, you know, the cute puppy love, or Adi, amazing, you know, and I think that it's not about bringing the couple to a vulnerable or uncomfortable part of their journey. It's not about, you know, digging into the art, but to me intimacy, it's just, it really comes down to gifting them with something that's more than just photos to me, because I'm going back to what happened with Ali and myself, because we were separated. And so many bad things were going on, it was really hard to remember who we were, you know, where do we come from? Who is this guy that I fell madly in love with? Who is this girl that he fell madly in love with it with an end? And what happened to these people? Where are they? And what I'm pretty sure off is that if I had photos taken by you guys, during one of our travels, because it's a really strong, it's a really big thing between us. I'm sure that if we have photos taken by you guys in Africa, or in Patagonia, or in Iceland, I'm pretty sure that just seeing those photos could have helped me and helped us make our way back, you know, to who we are when we're the best version of ourselves. And I want to educate photographers, if I dare say so. But from the most humble Yeah, place. I want to educate fotografias into acknowledging that we are gifting couples with more than pretty pictures, no matter how amazing they are, whether that's technically, or in terms of light, or editing, or style or creativity. At the end of the day, what I think is that we tend to photos in hard times. But even if it's not a hard time, even if it's just the day to day life, if you've got that photo printed, and it's on your wall, and you see it every day, when you're out to go to work or something, you know, it just puts a smile on your face, it's just that little reminder that hey, you know, maybe you slip the pride because you've got a little human just messing up with your knights. And maybe it's been a long time since you've had a date. And maybe it's been a long time since you were able to really have a heart to heart conversation. But you're there somewhere in each other's heart, you carry each other and you carry that version of each other. That version that's captured in that moment in that photo, you carry it in your heart, and that photo is just a little reminder of that. So hang on to it. And I'm absolutely sure that if photographers had that intention in mind, it would also probably help them with things such as impostor syndrome, and self doubt and self sabotage and comparison game and all the whatnots because the reality is if we put all of our attention to the photo, as photographers some saying, if you put all of your attention on the photos, then obviously it's gonna drive you insane to just go on Instagram, because have you seen how many talented photographers they are out there? Jesus? How are you supposed to not feel defeated? And how are you supposed to not feel like you will never be enough and you will never. It's just, I mean, and this is why I am so thankful to the underwater photography. It's because before that, all I could see was damnit I am stuck on this tropical island. And what I want to photograph is Iceland and Alaska and Patagonia. Take me there already. Give me pine trees. Give me snow. Give me lakes. Do you mean New Zealand? What the heck am I doing? To me insane. But you know, I was longing after something just because I find it beautiful. Yeah, but because I find it beautiful. It doesn't mean that this is actually what's fueling my creativity. Yeah, what's fueling my creativity is my honesty is the place where I come from, in my own couple in my own marriage. It's the things that we've been through, not just because of each other, but for each other. And, and I want to give that I want to I know that the story that I tell the story that I want my narrative. I think that really people focus a lot about creativity. And very often it comes down to techniques and tips and tricks and this and that, but I think that it should be a lot more authentic. Creativity would flow naturally, if people were giving more time to their narrative, what is their narrative? I mean, your narrative through tinted is crystal clear. It's crystal clear, you know it and it's not just a brand. Because if it was just a brand, it would be missing an honesty and a rawness that that is there and oozes from all of your photos. So I think if you, if you had that narrative figured out, if you understood what your photography is about, then your creativity would come from the inside, and not from just trying to replicate somebody else's journey. So, yeah,
Sirjana Singh:I have nobody to stop me now. Because I have written questions and we need to get into that. One of the most important component of a creative person or creative life of creativity, is to be able to understand what is it that you can channel your anguish into, which will make the world or or yourself feel understood, feel, feel like you had a good release, etc. So it is really important, the self awareness component is so important in everything that we do. I think it all comes down to what Socrates said, Know thyself, you know, it is no matter which direction you go into, the answer comes back to what he said, Know thyself, you know, that's so important. Then you talked about finding creativity and finding your own passion and finding your own happiness inherent now, rather than chasing something else. And the first hand witness of witnessing of that that we had was with Pablo loggia, one of our favourite photographers who randomly picked up a stone in Mongkok National Park, while these beautiful giant mountains are surrounding him. And he picked up the stone and he said, This is so beautiful. And he looked at us and I was like we can you not it was so honest, it was so much truth in the way he was just holding such a normal piece of stone and looking at us saying it's so beautiful. There was childlike wonder in his eyes. And in that moment, Ben and I understood that photography is not about beautiful pictures. Definitely. Yeah, that was such a, it was such a Oh, my God a slap in your face, or like you hit a wall, suddenly, you know, you go, Oh, and we were shadowing him trying to understand his ways. You know, we had a one day with him where Ben and I learned this phrase where we would say what would Pablo do? Yeah, you know, and then the second day, he picked up that stone. In between those days, that was couple of weeks. And so then the second day, when he picked up the stone, both Ben and I, that night, when we were discussing, we both had that realisation of like it's not about the poses, or the light or even composition of the photo. It's about why you are doing this, you know, and in his broken English, he asked us the same question too. And the last thing I want to talk about, again, is the thing that you said that in our industry. The whole thing about accepting different bodies and accepting who we are physically is we talk about that, but we don't talk about accepting different love stories. And I think it is because in our culture, like I said, complexity, or as human beings, complexity is very hard to navigate. So for example, forgiveness, the word forgiveness is very misunderstood. Because the easy definition of forgiveness is I forgive you, which means you did something wrong. And okay, but it's okay. But it's okay. Whereas forgiveness is so much more than that. And in fact, that is beautifully a bottle of forgiveness is forgiving somebody else. And I think that that's the same thing that happened with love. And the same thing that happened with this word called this whole movement of love yourself. I think people forgot that loving yourself doesn't mean that you have to champion yourself. Loving yourself doesn't mean you have to say yay, me, look at my flaws. I'm not going to change anything. This is me. Love it or leave it. It's not that it is all about recognising who you are. And then being still in it. It's the word is accepting. So it is not about like you said making scenarios where people can get intimate. It's not being in those scenarios where you can rip your clothes off or talk about your most vulnerable moments. It's about creating atmospheres where the person you're photographing, feels accepted as they are in that moment, doesn't mean they don't have to change doesn't mean they're good or bad. They just accepted. This is who you are, and I see you. And doing that to your
Unknown:key. Sorry, I'm interrupting you here because that is spot on the key, I see you. Yes, that's the thing is that our true gift Sorry, I'm being excited and carried away compensation, as always, but that's the thing, I feel that our true gift as photographers, it goes so far beyond the pretty photos that we can do. And the fact that we know our gear, and the fact that we know our light, normally, and all of that it comes from the ability to see people to see relationships, because honestly, you were talking about forgiveness. And I mean, if I'm honest, apart from family and spouses, I don't really know how many people we give the time to our forgiveness. You know, usually it's easier to take the higher route and I mean, not to high road, but just ditch it altogether, like you hurt me or you crossed me or whatever. And that's it, we're done. But there is something so incredibly loving and beautiful about forgiveness about, you know, being able to say it, like you said, it's not like you did something wrong, and it's okay, I forgive you. It's just, it's something wrong, but I also see the struggles that you went through to grow a bigger person out of it and, and how I grew out of, out of learning to forgive you and all of that, and but it comes really comes back to what you were saying about seeing people would start very often because we're in a relationship. And we're this close to our relationship, like we wake up next to each other every day. And you know, we go through all the housekeeping and all the day to day and the kids and the finances and this and this and that we get too close to our own relationship to actually see it as it is. Whereas as photographers, we can take a step back. And we can be like, look at yourself through my eyes, you know, just the same way that a boudoir photographer gives so much care, so much delicate attention to how they approach the especially the female body because we are so anxious about it. The same way as temple photographers, we can give that kindness and that care to a couple we can say, Look, guys, maybe you are sleep deprived, maybe maybe it's been a long time since you've had a moment together to breathe, and to just be who you are, you know, the best versions of yourself. But that's okay, I see it. It's like we're able to dust it off and see the diamond. Yeah. And we should we definitely definitely, definitely should give that to couples. And we should they deserve that they really deserve that.
Sirjana Singh:And I think that comes from, and that comes from doing that to ourselves. Because we've had moments where Ben and I have been arguing and we are on a shoot just before the shoot, we have an argument. And we we go over our checklist, you know, because we're not feeling it right now. So we go over our checklist, you know, we have to make sure we do this, we have to make sure we do this and you know murmur. But because we're in that moment where none of us is forgiving the other person, which in a sense means we're not seeing each other at all, where we are, we are not able to see our couples as well. So we artificially create moments. And it feels fake to us. It feels I don't know what feels to them, but it feels fake to us. And because it feels fake to us. The whole day we keep on trying. And luckily, you know, this hasn't happened in in many years now. Because, you know, going through like you and Ali going through our rough times, Ben and I broke up before our engagement just before our engagement I think for for quite a few months. And going through that was such an amazing awakening of seeing yourself as a failure, double human being and understanding who you are. But you're right. We used to do that used to create these moments because, you know, let's give them some time to talk let's step back and other things which were artificially created and not spontaneously born. And so it is really important to do unto ourselves what we are intending to do unto others.
Unknown:Absolutely, I mean, learning goes both ways. That's the thing. It's that we never, I think one of the most beautiful things about creativity is that it is insatiable. When it comes to learning. And as a couple of photographers, I remember back when Ollie and I was separated, that's when I really started digging deep into photographing couples. And I remember having friends who were like 18 knots or something like, or, you know, why do you do this to yourself? Yeah. But it's because seeing couples in love seeing how they looked at each other, or talk to each other. And, and like you said, just applying that mirror effect, you know, it's not just from us to them, but also from them. To us, it really just helped me also change the way that I looked at Ollie. Because probably, sometimes my eyes were cricket. And they were just not, you know, they were not seeing Him for who He really was, but rather for who I wanted him to be, where needed him to be, or what society made me think that he should be as a partner as a husband, this and this and this and that. But so looking at how other partners looked at their spouse and looked at their partner, sometimes it just gave me that space, you know, to be like, Huh, I wonder if I ever looked at only that way. Yeah, like, did I give him? Did I give him that chance to be who he really is? And did I give my relationship the gift of this much honesty. And you know, it's that thing, I love it during weddings when they or during elopements when they're exchanging vows, or when they're doing speeches, because there is just doing something surprising every single time, and yet something completely universal. And that really moves me. But what moves me mostly is that even for couples who've been together for years, sometimes they don't see coming out the thing that I do when I'm doing intimacy sessions is that partners will be in each other's arms. And the one that's behind whether it's him or her or Yeah, I will just be like, Okay, can you describe your partner in three words, like not a sentence, not 10 sentence sentences, just three words. And usually the words that come out, the person that receives them, did not see them coming. And I can see, not only the surprise, but also the sheer emotion like, Oh, my God, I didn't even know he saw me that way. Or all this time I was craving recognition, I didn't even know that he actually does. See, he does know, it's just that we don't spend our days, saying, you know, thank you for this. And thank you for that. And you're this and you're that. But all of a sudden, you create that tiny space where they have permission to really take a look at themselves as a couple, or take a look at each other as partners. And then this truth comes out what I love so much is that we can an earth somebody's truth in their relationship in their journey. And, and this is amazing. This this is truly truly truly amazing and beautiful and important. And I think that when you go down with intention like this, then creativity there's there's no such thing as a creative rut anymore. I don't think so. A creative rut is when like you said, you're engineering something. Yeah, you're engineering a composition. Yeah. An image or, you know, a lightning scenario. And of course, it's great. I mean, come on. We are photographers. We love that stuff. Yeah. But I don't think that this is what truly nourishes. I don't think that this is the true purpose of why we do photography of couples.
Sirjana Singh:Absolutely. So the I, you know, a minute ago, we told you that one of the things Ben and I would ask ourselves, what was what would Pablo do? And the answer to that was, he would not think he would just feel and do it. You know, he was not. And when I say comparison, it's also not it's comparison with ourselves as well. So when we first won our awards, it happened to us so suddenly, because it was one award and second and third. It all happened in a quarter of a year. It does something to your head. It just immediately you're like, Oh no, we can't put out Got a photo now if it's not award winning like this, it was much pressure. We started seeing me mostly started saying mean things to about myself and about Ben to him and about myself, like, just like, we saw it like, How can we not do this? And so and so is doing this? What the fuck? Why are we not able to do it just constantly being in that rut and constantly pushing wrong buttons. But in, in that moment, when when that feeling passes, you realise that you've burnt out, you feel like you need to take a break, you feel like you don't have ideas, and you suddenly realise, what am I missing, which was there. So abundantly, that we were able to win three awards back to back to back, and was not even an ounce of comparison, even to ourselves? You were just doing,
Unknown:we were alone in the industry at that point, right. So alone, we and for five years doing everything, like in our own little bubble in the
Sirjana Singh:garage, which was not insulated. I just have to say that. But it was and we did that to ourselves. I don't think somebody else made us lonely. We just we were like, No, we who do we ask how do we do this? You know, it was we just didn't know any better. But yeah, you're so right. When you talk about how we see ourselves and, and how comparison can just make you just just kill it and make it feel like you're in a rut. Whereas if you're creating for your own sake.
Unknown:But it's true when they say that it's that comparison is the thief of joy. I mean, nothing is so true, and nothing is sadder, I think then an artist kind of creative who robs himself or herself of that joy. Because if you're playing the comparison game, if you're playing the award and Instagrammable, you know, fanciness, and everything you're bound to be frustrated, you're bound to count short, because maybe you'll have 1000 amazing ideas. But that's just not going to be enough because it's a never ending game. It just keeps going on and on and on. And on and
Sirjana Singh:on. The thing is you can seemingly win that game for the world, but not for yourself. You can do that. Because Exactly. Me and Ben were in that position. Like I said, those first three awards after that, there was a period where people wrote about us, we were in, you know, different magazines, we were still winning awards. We were not happy. We were burned out. We were so burned out like we would do the things that would make giving us joy before what now like chores. And anything stepping out even a slight here from here to there would just it was just like, crush you. Yeah, just like and also
Unknown:I think it's just putting that pressure on you that because people see you in that certain way, then this needs to become who you are. So if people have decided or they must be so happy because they're they've made it you know, they've made it Yeah, they'll know they're they're like big names in the industry. They don't use heroes. Yeah, people want to be them and then won awards. And this this that all of a sudden you can't say I'm not happy? Yeah. Because then everybody will be like, Wow, you're ungrateful. I mean, you've made it. What the heck is wrong with
Sirjana Singh:you? My my, my actually, idea was that not just I didn't even think about ungrateful Oh, gosh. I actually thought that it ironically. No, no, no, I understand. I understand. But what my thing was that people would think I'm fake. So coming back to impostor syndrome, I thought if I now start telling people that I'm sad, then people will go back and go, Oh, well, how long have you been sad for then? Why are you acting like what was happening? Whereas,
Unknown:but this is our industry. Our industry does that. And it's a problem. It's a problem because honestly, I'm worried about the mental health, of photographers of winning a couple of photographers, because it is not our reality. I was talking with friends who are outside of the industry just a couple of days ago. And it just made me realise that our standards, whether it's in terms of achievement, or whether it's in terms of being humans and being in relationships, they are completely biassed. Because day in day out, we look at things that are seemingly perfect, you know, and how is this not going to create a bias in our expectations of reality? I mean, not every day can be honeymoon not every day can be wedding day, not every day. Can you have a hairdresser and makeup artists make you look your best self and your partner just ready to you know Throw flower petals at you and give you like huge loving speeches. It's just not. But yet as wedding couple photographers, we see that everyday, everyday, everyday everyday every day. And so then the average day becomes horrible. It's like, it's like you said, it's like we live in Bollywood all of the time. And so when we need to go back home from the studio, no way, I don't want that. Leave me in my bubble. But this cannot be real.
Sirjana Singh:I think it it also happens for creatives, regardless of whichever industry we are in. Because the whole act of creating is so mesmerising and so powerful, it's orgasmic. And so there are days when it's you don't get orgasms, and you just go like this life.
Unknown:Yeah, that's the ultimate frustration is.
Sirjana Singh:No. It is so true. Like I just made me as you were talking about the state of industry. It which is a club 27 where a lot of who's part of club 37. It's Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jimmy, Jim Morrison, all died at the age of 27. Between 69 and 71. So it was called the club 20. Yeah, 27 club or club 27. And, and one of the things my it's horrible thing to say. But my father used to say, when I started writing poetry and painting and dancing and singing, he used to be like, she's going to live long. I don't know, we'll have a long life. And much later in
Unknown:artist. Yeah, he
Sirjana Singh:was, he was like, a pragmatic. He, I now understand, after a very long time, what he was saying is because as a creative, you just you live like a firefly, you know, you just burn so bright, not just because you think you're amazing. But because you're in so much joy and passion and like your heat at that time. And then it just extinguishes and then you're in search of another light, and then it is such a taxing task. It's not easy. And now add on top of that, the pressures of social media. I think, a generation or two generations after that, they're going to look back and think that we did that to ourselves. But I think they're going to anthropologically speaking miss a very integral part of No, it wasn't, it was literally the times we lived in, but I feel like their conclusion would be that we did that to ourselves. Anyways, the Add to that the pressures of social media viewer in plain comparison, without even trying to be in the comparison game, it is very hard. It is hard to smile through it on days, and then have to smile. It's toxic, it's toxic, and
Unknown:it's harder. So the other way around. It's not hard to see people who even with the best intentions in the world who admire you, and are inspired by what you do, try to do what you do. Because when you create from a place of honesty, when you actually try to express whatever it is that you're carrying inside, whether it's your truth, or whether it's your sense of wonder, or whether it's a sense of questioning or whether it's your pain, because a lot of our creativity sometimes comes from our pain as well. The problem is when you see someone who's trained to do what you do. So obviously, some of them have the best intentions, they are just genuinely inspired by what you do. But sometimes you feel robbed of something so personal. So personal. You know, it's not just that they're copying a technique that you have. It's that they don't know that it's a piece of your soul that you put in there that doing this this way you're not doing it just because it looks prettier just because you thought it'd be cool or because it would when you're an award. It's because it's coming from a piece of your soul really, and it's really Yeah, I mean it it's just hard because
Sirjana Singh:and I think the alien a bigger reason that we are thanking you for saying that is because he put into words what we were feeling and then feeling bad for feeling that. So we have a folder on our Instagram, which is called ripoffs, and we save photos that are clear ripoffs of some of our works and we just put them there. I started putting in it used to be something that Ben used to do, but I started adding in that there too. And then I felt like I've been I'm being sucked To this negativity, but the moment you explained what you just said, It is why that's why because there is that photo of that triple exposure that we've created where there is.
Unknown:Yeah, I would have copied you if I could, if I just can't.
Sirjana Singh:It was it came at
Unknown:such a pivotal moment in our life. There was a point where you said, you know, what is first and foremost a painter. Like, that's, that's her expressive art is definitely painting. And there was a point where she realised that she could paint and be a photographer at the same time. She was like, Okay, I've got a blank canvas. How do I make this work? Yeah, yeah. And that's where that came from. So that's why that one, it was
Sirjana Singh:such a pivotal moment for me, because up until that photo, and it is amazing how recent that photo is. Up until that photo, I did not fit into my job profile. I just didn't know it. I felt apps layer talked about imposter syndrome. I understand it. My background is in psychology. I have mercilessly studied the topic. I get it. But I couldn't help myself feel like I am just not it. I'm not a photographer. It's not until that photograph happened. And I was able to pull things out of my past about things. It's the salt. It's one of my favourite songs that inspired that photo. That and came home and I did it myself with a very crappy photoshop skills. And then Ben had to fix all of it. But like, I came up with that idea, put it there. And I was like, This is what I mean. And Ben was blown away. And the moment he was blown away, I had that. What I am a photographer, can i Oh, my gosh, I became so much more confident like I walk with the camera now with such purpose. I still have those moments where I'm like, no photography, really. But no, yeah.
Unknown:Menu, like, how did this happen? Why have I got the sitting? Oh, my God, Ben.
Sirjana Singh:Or I'll show him a reel and Instagram reel where somebody's saying, This is how you do this. And I'll be like, then this is how you do this. And he just shows me hundreds of photos is like, how did doing this? So I have those moments. Still, I don't understand my tools as much as I would like to understand.
Unknown:But yeah, that I use
Sirjana Singh:when other people rip that off. Ben would feel angry on my behalf. And I was like, no, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. It's fine. It's form of flattery. But now that you've explained it, I totally get it. I should allow myself to feel that anger because I totally feel that.
Unknown:Yep. Yep. It's it's just not. It's not a pen that you're borrowing from someone. It's just something that we struggle, because creating art from from a place of, of intention from a plate from a place of heart. We don't even understand it ourselves. It's like you said, it's a struggle, because we like I don't know, I can take photos. Yes, I guess they're beautiful. But somehow I don't feel it. And then you take something and you feel it, you feel this, this incomparable joy, because it's like you finally met your own self. You know, it's like you've been in a dark for so long, and you know that you're there, you know that you're in the room somewhere and you just keep going tiptoeing. And then somehow, in this moment, you just realised this is who I am, this is what I've been trying to express all along. This is what I've been trying to capture. This is why I do what I do. And so to have someone and just casually, that's the hard thing is just how casually we treat each other's arch. Because we believe that if it's out in the open, and if you're posting it on Instagram, and so on, it's everybody else's to take and be inspired from. And that's the thing too, but to me, I really stopped being also it's this is a losing game for everybody, because you're losing because you're feeling that anger from being ripped off something so precious to you. And on top of that you feel pressure that you cannot express this because it is not politically correct. And you should feel flattered that people actually want to copy you. But what I'm thinking is also that the person who actually did that, sometimes it's casual. Sometimes they claim don't care, that you label them copycat, sometimes they do it out of sheer admiration, but the truth is when they're busy copying you, dude losing the energy that they could put into growing and figuring out who are they when is their moment going to happen? What is the photo that is going to make it for them, that is made that is going to bring them that joy that is going to make them realise who they are and who they want to be as photographers and as artists, so you're losing the person who's copying us losing, and also the industry is losing. Because while we're so busy just trying to follow a trend, a copy, this photo does amazing or this or that, then the talent that each individual could bring to this industry. It's just becoming bland. Yeah, it's just becoming a whole bunch of a few photographers who are lucky enough to know themselves well enough, or, or, you know, have an artistic background or an artistic maturity or something that will lead them down this path, this creative path of figuring out who they are. But the vast majority of people, they're not even taking the journey. And the worst thing is, most of us we were not, we're not wedding photographers, out of our studies, we usually had a different background, a different job, a different career. Yeah. And then we made a decision, and sometimes a big decision, and sometimes a sacrifice, to drop all of this to pursue this dream of being a photographer. But then if you're not going, the, if you're not really taking the creative journey, then to me, it's like buying an aeroplane ticket to your dream destination. And then you've got it in your hand, and you stick to the airport. You know what I mean? You just looking at all the other people going in that plane, and you're posting their photos. Yeah. And you never took the journey yourself? What the heck, yeah. What the heck, I mean, people earn it to themselves to take on that journey, and to see where it's going to lead them. I mean, I definitely had no idea that it would lead me to couple photography, and certainly not underwater photography. But I'm so glad that I took that journey because it changed everything.
Sirjana Singh:Talking about this magical journey, that underwater photography that you found yourself on, please tell us about this underwater underwater session that you did while being seven months pregnant. What the heck? What is happening here? Talk us about how, how did that come about? What was going through your mind when you said yes. And what happened?
Unknown:Oh my gosh, okay, you notice also a session that I did 10 days after Elio was born. So true story. 10 days, that was insane. But the one the one that I did when I was seven months pregnant, honestly, I just missed it. And you know, it's been, I mean, I think on a tiny island and locals, they don't really have that culture of hiring a photographer for their weddings, because it's very trust, traditional, not in the Western sense of tradition, but in the custom sense of tradition and festivities go on for like, five days, you know, and there is a dot and arrows, you know, villages come together. And it's just all these sorts of things. So local weddings, they don't really have a room for photographers yet. So up until 2020 Pretty much all of the weddings that I was photographing, they were people coming from overseas to Vanuatu and hiring me booking me to photograph them so it's like your destination wedding photographer but reverse Yeah, and and then 2020 happens you know and I thought This is so unfair, like honestly 2019 was so good and 2020 was going to we know a year you them three days and all of your business is gone. And and the thing is that yes, it is worrying from a business perspective because this is our econ This is our job this is our business. But what many people fail to see probably in photographers Entourage is that we didn't just lose an income we didn't lose a job. We lost something that we're passionate about, you know, something that deeply contributes to our well being. Ali is a surfer and and I tried to explain it to him the other day because I was just so sad. I was like, dude, imagine going on almost three years without being able to go into water and surf. This is what I feel like about not being able to photograph as much as I used to. I miss it not for the money not for anything. I just miss doing my thing. I missed that joy. I missed that moment where I am perfectly okay with who I am. And yeah, all of that and being carried away again. So this is why even if I was seven months pregnant when the opportunity came to do an underwater session, I was like, Heck yes, this is happening. I didn't really think it through when that happened. So off we go and The only he comes with me on every underwater session, because it's also something we're not like you guys, we're not a couple of photographers. But we do like our world to intersects every now and then. And so because he's got a passion for the ocean, he understands the swell, he understands the waves, he understands so many things better than I do. And, and also, when I photograph I could forget to breathe, because I'm just completely. So it's good to have him just keeping an eye on people that they're not drowning and had their okay, that they're not blue and cold and all of that. So off we go. And we get into water. And I'm getting so excited. And I've got all these ideas in my head. And all of a sudden I realised it's a tiny problem. I'm seven months pregnant, I am a floating device motion.
Sirjana Singh:I know.
Unknown:There's just no way that I that I actually can dive I can't, I'm trying to, and I cannot dive. And it's you know, the session is happening. We're there, we're in the water and a couple they expect leadership from their photographer, they expect their photographer to know what to do, what's happening, and to lead them and all of a sudden photographers like, I'll be joining you in a minute, guys. I'll be down there, just give you a minute. And so two things have been on this session in terms of creativity. The first one is that creativity is not, you know, it's not just about art, creativity, to me, it's born out of constraint. And it's born out of failure, again, that I needed to come up with something creativity, it's also problem solving. I mean, if everything was perfect, if all that we had was golden lights all of the time, a perfect couple who knew how to be passionate all of the time, we wouldn't need to go the extra mile thinking in terms of creativity, we think in terms of creativity, because we're given a certain context and a certain moment and a certain light and a certain couple, and a certain mood as well, whether there's four hours, and we need to do something out of it, preferably something beautiful. No pressure. But yeah, I was there. And so I needed to be creative. And my answer my very, very creative. And since you being a voting device was Honey, can you come here, I'm going to try to die. And when I'm under what are you going to do so you're going to put you to fit on top of my back. And you got to keep me under. So this is your moment you actually release all tension. You've got permission to drown your pregnant wife under the water. Do not let me come back. As amazing, this is a true story people and a couple were looking at us like these people were nuts are they doing and honestly, all that you can do in a moment like this is Be transparent be like, people I don't know if you've noticed that belly. It's maybe bring it and it's kind of stopping me from doing my thing. So yeah, I'm just gonna ask my my very nice husband very loving, very normal human being no serial killing whatsoever, actually kept me underwater while I'm photographing you guys, because I do not know how to go differently about this. So this was the first creative moment. You know, it was like, You know what, when you're facing a wall, you're just gonna have to be creative. That's it. That's just how it's going to be. And some of your best work, it might actually come up from having to throw all of your beautiful plants and ideas by the window and deal with the situation absolutely done the second. It does. And the second creative moment that happened for the exact same reason that again, I was a floating device is that up until that session, most of the time, I would continue to photograph my underwater sessions the same way that I would photograph on land pretty much which is just trying to be at the same level as my couples head most of the time. Unless I'm shooting upwards, but I feel like at least speaking to myself instinctively because I'm trying to capture intimacy I tend to put my head on the same level as there is very often right. And so what happened was that during my underwater session, I would replicate that instinct underwater so they would dive and if they died, like two metres deep. I would try to go about two metres deep and be able to same level as Damn it's hard because I'm speaking with my hands but this is a podcast I'm going to be worse only. But picture that, you know, I'm just trying to be on the same level as them. And then all of a sudden, because I'm pregnant, because I'm floating, because also my breath is not the same as I'm not pregnant, and I definitely want your Yeah, it's everything is different. And also, as much as I'm a passionate photographer, I'm trying to be mindful today I'm carrying a tiny human in my belly, and I don't want to hurt him or her in any possible way. So what happens is that a little while through the session, I'm actually telling my couple, you know what, guys, I need a minute to rest. But also, we're in a good flow right now. So I want to have you kept going under, but I'm just going to photograph you from the surface. And then this is the second creative moment, it's that I realised, heck, I mean, the water, I can read underneath a couple, I can be above the couple, I can be on their side, I can be wherever I want. Everything that applies physically on land, it does not apply here, I can free myself from that. I can be a bird, I can be a fish, I can be whatever I want. However, I don't get a chance to do absolutely. Your own drum. And it was amazing. Yes, exactly. It's like all of a sudden, when you're photographing a session underwater, dude, you can fly, you're underwater, but you can fly. And this is, I mean, this is ridiculous. And the possibilities that open up is and the greatest thing in terms of creativity, it's that when you, to me creativity, it's like I'm a kitten and creativity is just the law, you know how to call them there's little ball of yarn of, yeah. And I can just, you know, keep keep unrolling keep going. Because the truth is, once I figured that out in the water, the next session that I photographed when I was on land, I still had that lingering feeling of freedom in terms of perspective. And I realised why the hell do I always put myself in the same level, this was my couple, I can climb a tree, I can go up, I can get a drone, I can lay down I can. And you know, it's all the things that are used to do, I guess, when I was studying photography, and I was very eager, yeah. And then you sort of get comfortable, then you know what you're doing, you know that you're doing it? Well, you know that this is also what your couples expect from you, this is what they want from you. So you're just out to give it to them. And you sort of forget this childlike freedom, you know, of, I have no idea what I'm doing. So I'm just going to go in like, I'm the most confident kid on the block. And I'm going to do everything, I'm going to be a ninja, I'm going to climb the walls and climb the trees and jump off and photograph when I'm in the air and do this and do that. And then you become this more mature, more level headed post photographer, and you sort of don't have that playfulness again. So creativity, I think is just it nourishes itself. If you if you're honest, and you open a door to it that is not fueled by what you've seen other people do, then you just realise there is this incredible potential. To me creativity and potential. It's like you're living in Paris, and you've got the Eiffel tower there, the Eiffel Tower, that's your potential. And that's your creativity. But it's there. So you kind of take it for granted. And while you're in Paris, you're dreaming of New York, and you're dreaming of Iceland, and you're dreaming of all these other cards, Oh, these are the places you're not taking that time to look at, look through your window and be like, yep, whoa, this is cool.
Sirjana Singh:And sometimes it can have very negative consequences. Well, not just sometimes it can have very negative consequences. And to give you an example, recently, there was an art show. And I did not participate in it because I looked at my work and I was like, I've seen like, it's not nothing amazing. It's something amazing. And I kept thinking I have three months, I'm going to create a completely different set of work. And I'm going to submit that. And then we sold a house we moved 10 Airbnbs building a house. The date passed. I couldn't I couldn't submit. Yeah, three days later. Three days later, we went to Ben's parents batch house.
Unknown:Batch batch Beach, beach house, beach house
Sirjana Singh:better beach house. And my mother in law has my art printed and framed all around that badge. And I walked in and looked at my art and I I just I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I was like, oh my god Oh, this looks amazing what was wrong with me? Why? Why did I do that? And but you think I learned my lesson? No, you know, you know, this is this is a key takeaway point here that even if you know all of these things, simple truths, simply bypass, as my father used to say that still says that it's so important. Because just yesterday, Ben said, I'm going to college, some art galleries and talk to them about your art. And I was like, Yeah, I don't have anything nice. Let me create something new. Immediately, I went into that same trap again, without meeting a beat. And I had to just pause and remind myself in my head, I obviously didn't say that to bend but in my head, I went, don't do it again, do not do. You have, like, just revel in what you already have. And by no display,
Unknown:though, could just be let me cut you for just a second here. Could this be maybe that because this year has been so full on, there is the pragmatical part, you know that everybody understands? Like, it's just so busy. There's just so much going on that it clouds your creativity. But could it be also that because you have changed so much in this year?
Sirjana Singh:I got it the moment you said Could it be I was like, I know where you going? And you're so right, because I started painting about my motherhood experience with Mahi. And what I started painting there was how I cannot connect with him because I had a colicky baby was crying all the time. And he's not hugging me back, and I'm trying everything and nothing is happening. That's because he's a boy. But five months story, yeah, but five months into my doing those paintings. He literally runs to us and gives us hugs, like this is his evening. Hugs Ben then goes hugs nanny, then comes back hugs me then goes hugs band like this is what you do. So those paintings that I created. They don't speak to me anymore. On a personal level, if but however, I would be remiss if I completely throw them out, because like you said, it is accepting yourself. It is understanding and celebrating that that was who I was very much who I was moment. And that moment has informed this moment. The person that I'm talking, the person who went through that moment has made this moment possible, basically. So what I want to say is
Unknown:that creativity is a growing thing. It's like your persona, that it's a it's a persona that you're hosting inside of you and and it grows as the same as you grow and growth, it doesn't happen overnight. And it's gonna take some shaping and sub tiptoeing before you figure it out.
Sirjana Singh:And I want to stress that so much these two things, one, in the entire conversation that we've had, is knowing ourselves is supremely important and seeing things more than just the surface level is essential. But another thing is don't take your creativity, the journey, you're on the things you're experiencing, like in the example of Paris and Eiffel Tower for granted, like in the example of one or two and your underwater journey. Don't take them for granted. And remember that even though you think you know these lessons, and this applies to both, all three of us here as well. Even though we sound like we know these answers, we can still fall prey to all those things that we've mentioned. As knowing as knowing. So it's important to keep revisiting these and it's important to keep educating ourselves and reminding ourselves and having those regular catch up with people in your life that give you sustenance. And for us. One of them is you Valerie. Thank you so much for being that person. Absolutely. I know I it was such a chance meeting how we met through a mentoring session and and it's just oh man,
Unknown:I was fangirling you like Oh, I was just glued to your feet like so much. We I was I can remember that. And I remember I remember the day that you started following me on Instagram. I remember waking up and I think I had the shittiest night to be honest. I was grumpy and it's not a good thing. For me, if I wake up and I'm grumpy, it's not going to be a good day. And then I grew up my phone and I open my Instagram. And then I've got all these likes, I've got tinted photography started following you and I, we learn to wait likes, and I think I honestly must have started a dance or something useless, useless like such a moment. But you know what, I own this, I really own it, because this this child like, admiration, you know, like, like, you feel like you're a baby photographer. And, and that's what I'm saying. I'm like, I think a key thing for me is to tell people, you know, because we were talking about copying and ripping off people of what they do, celebrate them do have admiration to get inspired, do, you know, be like, Oh, my God, these guys, they are mind blowing. But give yourself that chance of surprising you as well. You know, give yourself that chance of impressing your own self. Yeah. Because the easy thing with creativity is that it's a chance for you to meet your own self over and over and over again. And to nurture that relationship that you've got with yourself, to move from being a woman to being a mother being a guy being a father, being a partner, all of that it's just as as creatives, we have this opportunity to check up on ourselves a lot more than people who have a different kind of jobs usually have I mean, I'm imagining that if you're an accountant, it doesn't really fit into your job description to you know, tech piles of what you're feeling right now and where you are. And
Sirjana Singh:however, however, my point from here is that not only just checking with yourself, as loners in the industry, that Ben and I wore for a very long time checking in on other creatives, because the ideas that they generate, like since we connected with you the inspiration that you gave us to try different things to get into our swimming pool and try take some photos. It's been amazing. And so as an accountant, you might realise how much joy you would get from surrounding yourself in a party where boozes flowing with other accountants who are passionate about what they do.
Unknown:Oh, heck, yes. I mean, creativity doesn't belong only to artists, accountants could come up with, with creative thinking, yeah, terms of problem solving in terms of numbers. I mean, I am I suck at math, honestly. And I could not sound you know, they're artists with symphonies, we don't really relate in symphonies. I, this is not me, so I am a creative. I'm a creative person. But by all means, that does not mean that my creativity can apply to absolutely every, you know, there's just, I was talking to one of my very dearest and bestest friends out in the world, and she's recently become a single mom of two young girls. And, wow, the creativity that you need. For this kind of lifestyle. It is, like constant and it's 100%. And again, it's it's born out of constraints it's born out of, well, this is what it is. I'm just gonna have to go with it now. It's, I'm getting a theme here. Absolutely fantastic. I'm feeling like creativity is essentially puzzle solving. And I think, having had this having had this chat, I think that's my driving force. To be a creative is that I've always loved figuring out a problem and solving it, like having talked to you now. I feel like that's what's driving me. And it's something that realisation I hadn't really come to before. So thank you.
Sirjana Singh:Just that is true. And to sum it up, I think, I think, because this is how I can prove that we are all creatives because we live in this, the natural world of ours is full of constraints, you know, physical constraints, gravity and all of that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
Unknown:if I may add, say, can I learn No, just very quickly, what I think is also brilliant is that individuals, we all see different problems. Like if we take the three of us and you put us out in the field, and you like thinking creatively, and you're thinking in terms of problem solving, the problems that we're going to identify and try to solve, they're going to be different than might actually you know, try to come from a sort of engineering because I know like your eye for composition is very, very, very sharp. So you might see all the lines in the landscape that are just not quite as they should be, you know, and if there's a God somewhere it kind of effed up this Landscape a little bit. So let's sort of fix that problem in my composition. And answer Jana, I'm sure that you're going to come with your painted vibe. And maybe it's going to be the colour palette or something and maybe I'm coming from my problem is I want to be sure that if this couple fights tomorrow, the photos that I'm going to create for them is just going to remind them that they love each other. And so that's the beauty of it. And that's why it's completely endless. It's because if you look at it from a perspective of problem solving, then because our nature and our personalities defined the things that we're going to label problem that needs to be solved, we're going to think in different creative ways. And but one thing I wanted to say, just to come back with what you were saying, I'm checking out about checking up on creatives, if I may. Otherwise, please guys feel free to cut us off. But I am planning to do in, in May, I'm actually planning to host a mini live workshop. That is just to invite photographers who are feeling a little bit nervous about this wedding season started, you know, just starting to feel a little bit excited and yet overwhelmed. And it's just to have this moment to like just, you know, be called people be kind to ourselves, think about what's coming ahead and how we can be exciting and how you can be creative and how you can manage to go through yet another season of weddings without completely burning yourself. Because I feel that it can be lonely. It can really be lonely, to be a photographer and just be in that little bubble. So much of it is just completely different to everybody's routine. I mean, they usually take holidays on the summer. And this is when we're most busy. They usually have family gatherings. But we work on the weekends. Yeah, that and and we're even more going against as well against the flow, because you know, everybody else is headed into the summer. But hey, we're headed into winter. Yeah, what the heck? Yeah.
Sirjana Singh:And everybody else has also been another countries have been open borders, doing all of those things. Whereas New Zealand, whatever. Yep, probably just been cooped up, and suddenly said, the world is going to open. And before we even have the chance to travel ourselves, we would be welcoming our couples and other adventures in our own backyards. And it's going to feel bittersweet. You know, it's such an anticipation of welcoming them. But you're also feel like, let me go.
Unknown:He buy a ticket to port Vila. Yeah, this conversation we fell over and over and over again. Yes,
Sirjana Singh:yes, absolutely. Listen, I don't want to cut us I honestly don't. But I can totally in this moment. Understand when people say that I used to feel like they're just genuine. So be like, if you don't want to cut them, don't cut them. But I totally understand where they're coming from. Because if I don't cut
Unknown:this coming from Yeah, if you're on forever,
Sirjana Singh:not just that, if you don't cut this and make it, it's not even bite size anymore. But if we don't make it consumable size, I don't want anyone to miss any part of what you talked about. On another note, unrelated, I have to mention completely unrelated. I don't think anyone has spoken sweeter words about our art that you did this time. And it's just totally rocked our world. Thank you so much for that. I mean, we should be doing
Unknown:one of them. And I could go on. I mean, geez, I could like it's just funny. I don't but you know what, it is so funny the amount of time, so to drop to clear it on again. But it's a true thing when when I was writing the intimacy guide and it took me it took me months to write it a bit. I'm sorry, I know. I know. No, it wasn't long it was actually doing it. It's it's bulky, it's really, really bulky. And it's just massive. But many times because I tried to to write it. And I tried to have different perspectives. You know, like I know that this was reaching from my own perspective, but I was also trying to have this few key photographers that that I have like sheer admiration for like complete sheer admiration and yet I recognise that what you do and what I do is completely different. That's what I love. I adore that feeling, you know, and and the truth is many times when I needed not a comparison, but just sort of a balancing counter to wait. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, usually the photos that came to my mind they were always yours. They were just always it was like this perfect. Balance, you know, because I'm thinking, Okay, this is me as a photographer, this is what I do. But I think if I could just jump into someone else's shoes and do what they do, then probably be you guys. I mean, there were so many photos that you took that are so clear in my head, like I just there was this one photo you've got, I need to mention it. That photo YouTube or YouTube, it's a self portrait. And you're both standing on the beach, it's a night portrait, and then you made a double exposure with the gamma. Oh my god, I was like, I will forever and ever and ever be jealous of this photo. Ever, no matter how, no matter how good I get at my photography, no matter the awards, no matter anything, to not have thought about this photo to not have felted conceived it had the technical abilities to create it. Oh my god, it's just it's, I don't know, I can't guarantee you magic, I can guarantee you that you will find one of your own, and everybody in the world will be freaking. I don't plan on being pregnant. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I gotcha. Yeah.
Sirjana Singh:But it is, it's been. The reason I said it's so beautiful to hear those words are, they're coming from a place of sheer joy. You know, you say fangirling, and you say all of that, but it's the joy. It's the effervescence in your voice when you are praising us. It doesn't feel like there was any comparison. It doesn't feel like we have to live up to anything. It didn't feel like pressure coming from your mouth to our ears. It just felt sonorous. You know, it was beautiful.
Unknown:Can you Can I add just one thing, yeah, for your audience and the people who might be listening, because I don't know if you're going to cut this. But I think it is, it is important in our relationship, and it how it evolved over time, because as you said, we started off, I was completely stalking you guys on Instagram. And then you didn't know about us. So you thought I was a nice and cool person. So you started responding to my stalking. And then you became my mentors. And in many ways you still are. But also you made room for us to become friends. And this, this is something that for one I am hugely grateful for, not just because I gained you as friends, which is already hugely pressures, but because by having by opening the door to, to a mentoring relationship evolving into a friendship, you sort of gave me permission to consider myself, you know, it's not about being equals, because that's not how I want to see that. But you sort of gave me permission to free myself from from seeing the admiration that you can have for a photographer as something that needs to keep you lower than them is not many times.
Sirjana Singh:Yeah, it is. It's it's it's one of the things that I I'm sorry to cut you but that's one of the things when I was a teenager, my father used to always mention that going before getting into any relationship in any sphere of your life. It could be if you're religious or any any any sphere of your life is to remember, if you put somebody on a pedestal, there cannot be love. It is not love. When the person is on a pedestal, you can admire them, you can all add them, you can gawk at them, you can be respectful of them, you can be in shear, you know like oh my gosh and wonder of them. But it cannot be love love is among equals, and it's absolutely in for us. And love is what allows growth. It allows, you know, learning, it allows an environment which fosters change and creativity. So it is really important and
Unknown:joy and Joy said if I didn't have that chance to go on my own journey and figure out my own creativity, figure out my own, allowing myself my own growth and maturity. There would still be when I would be talking about your work, there would still be that point of envy, you know, that that very, very, very blurry line between admiration and envy. And the thing is that when you come from a place of joy because you know your place and you're enjoying your your ride, you can talk about other people's work with just admiration and joy for them and celebrate them. But if you don't take that journey for yourself, then you're always going to look at somebody else's success and somebody else's creativity with a tiny little bit of sadness, like Why them and not me that feeling that sadness, the saddest thing I'm feeling right now? Because I'm like, Why aren't I as eloquent is that? Just being dropping so many? Just saying,
Sirjana Singh:I talk and talk and talk. We would have a mentoring session and Ben would be upstairs. And I would walk up three hours later. And he's like, that was a long mentoring session. I'm like, No, that was an hour after that. We, me and Valerie are so similar in so many respects, we shared stories about our lives and how we see relationships and how we see optimism. I think we talked at length about being optimistic and what that means to us. And it was, it's been,
Unknown:I think the guys could come up with just any random words. Yeah. And have a started conversation. Yeah. And three hours later, we still be there to stay said Yes, like
Sirjana Singh:this. But no, this has been a huge joy. And honestly, I am not cutting this for any other reason. But I really want this to be in a in a consumable size. And also, so we can have you back. And people are like, we want more of her, which we want more of you. And I'm sure we will have DMS telling us that no, just get her back, please. Plews has been so insightful.
Unknown:Thank you,
Sirjana Singh:I can't let you go without asking you the question of a podcast, which is, is there any myth or one myth about creativity that you would like to bust?
Unknown:You know, that this is gonna be like another reason?
Sirjana Singh:Yeah, yeah, I have resigned myself to the fact that people will have to have four or five days multiple, different times, pleasant times of the day where they sit with your beautiful voice and hear about creativity.
Unknown:Okay, the one I had to thought about this, to be honest, because I know that this is your your sort of closure question. And there are many myths, but the one that I think is very accurate is that is this idea that to be creative, we need to have complete freedom, you know, we need to have couples that are not going to look over our shoulders at what we're doing. We need to not have kids at home that are depriving us from asleep. We need to not have money issues at the end of the month, and so on and so forth. But I don't think that this is true. I think that this is actually this is everything that makes the fabric of life and creativity nourishes itself from that. I feel like everything that we see as a constraint, it's actually a chance at a chance to just discover how do I thrive? Yeah, how do I thrive when everything even a freaking global pandemic? Yeah, I mean, seriously, seriously, a pandemic? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't it doesn't get any bigger than this.
Sirjana Singh:No, no, no, no.
Unknown:Yeah, no, okay. Yeah, your mind I take that back. I take that universe strike down. Me very much.
Sirjana Singh:I will be your source of licence like she's like me. I'm like her. It's just it's it's Yeah, I do the same thing universe.
Unknown:With soulmates? Yeah. soulmate. Yeah, there's this very beautiful French saying, I can't remember the author, but it says it's basically a question and that's like, what a friend and he adds to that is it's one soul in two bodies. And I've always loved it. I always ask for it. And I feel that we are thank Instagram for that if only for that because God knows I have a really like, a relationship filled with hatred. Because
Sirjana Singh:Zuckerberg created Instagram. Oh, my God, whoever created Instagram, and Zuckerberg got it and placed it in that place. So that we could meet. Yes,
Unknown:yes. But it allowed me to build relationship and to find my people. And so for that I actually have a relationship filled with love for Instagram. But yeah, I think that freedom is actually chasing freedom and thinking if I had complete freedom, I would be creative. I would be this I would be that. I think it's just making up a really good excuse. Because yeah, if you think all the walls that you might be, you know, facing or hitting in your life, I think that this these are just ways for you to just discover yet another layer of your personality of your potentiality of everything that you can do and how beautiful It can be in ways that are hugely surprising. Yeah. So yeah, to say that we need freedom to be creative? No,
Sirjana Singh:I don't think so. I want to add here that if you feel like you need freedom to be creative, sit with that anguish. Don't just listening to us think that you need to now think differently, because it's precisely in that anguish is where you your power is going to come from. It's precisely from where you're struggling, that power is going to come. I you know, the optimism comes from the deep wells of negative experiences. And it's not the absence of feeling negative emotions, it is, in spite or spite of in spite of that negative well, that we sometimes swirl and that our opt in optimism is a flop flowers. So it's the same thing with freedom and creativity. That yes, don't feel bad that you feel like you do need freedom to create it is to feel that way might have come up with this show. No, no, no, no, no, no, you didn't. You absolutely did not. I just it just came to me as you were talking, because that would have been my answer as well. If there's one myth about creativity that I want to bust outside of the fact that we're all creative would be the one you said. But as you were talking, it just it just sparked an idea and I just tagged on to it. I wouldn't have been able to tag on if you didn't initiate the idea, basically, is what I'm saying. So you didn't you didn't fall short of explaining. Okay, so as I end the episode, sadly, for all of you listening, because I can pick up my phone and talk to Valerie anytime. Sally for you guys.
Unknown:Then you are witness please hold her to that word. I will hold her to that word.
Sirjana Singh:Yeah, I know. I've been really bad. But But I can. The thing is I can and so many of the listeners can so I'm sorry. Sadly for you. This episode is ending. But before we let Valerie go, we're going to do a quick rapid fire round. So Valerie ready. So this is it's a difficult part of the podcast for you because these are one line ounces. Yeah, okay. Ready? All right.
Unknown:Yeah. Tell us your to do this.
Sirjana Singh:I've got this. Yeah, you got it. Tell us your three favourite colours.
Unknown:Green, blue and yellow.
Sirjana Singh:Tell me tell me she's not my sister. Tell me. Okay, really? Yeah, that's it. That's where we are. Are you a morning person or a night owl?
Unknown:Oh, gosh, I am a night owl. 100% 5am every day. I'm sorry. It just cannot be one line. I need to say this here. I am a girl shaped in the city of Paris where everything goes on late and everything starts late. And I married a guy who wakes up at 5am Every day. Who does this? Is what is wrong with your people. He was reading a book that is called the 5am Club. And I looked at him I'm like, dude, as if your condition is not bad enough. You're ready. After validation? I know, it's amazing. It's amazing to see the sunrise but for me it is forever an exceptional sight. Yeah, I'll have to shoot. Unless I need to get up to go and photograph a couple. Yeah.
Sirjana Singh:Yeah. I'm up singing a song if it's a shoot, but otherwise?
Unknown:Or do you hop on a plane or to go on to head to to the what's the airport travelling into dark knowing that you go into the airport? And then you're gonna start your day with a trip somewhere that I can do that I can. Waking you up for the sake of waking up at 5am Jesus And don't even get me started on kids because that's
Sirjana Singh:for the sake of waking up, what is that? Anyways? what talent do you wish you had?
Unknown:Geez. I'm hesitating because really what I think is that if there was a talent you wanted badly enough, you would, you would learn it. So I'm thinking to play music to play the guitar would be amazing. To be able to draw would be amazing. And to have that ability to just walk into a room and make friends. You know do people did you did just make friends like they're buying bread or something? And
Sirjana Singh:I'm getting goose bumps. You guys are three three 3343 Literally learning, honestly. So next time, Ben, if you were saying, I want to plan a surprise for you, and I don't know what to do call her. Because I think it would be what what she says is probably what I want. Because honestly, the moment she said, Well, if there was something you want to learn, you should do it. And like, that's how I started that answer to.
Unknown:I've got your back then.
Sirjana Singh:And what are you going to do right after this interview is over.
Unknown:I'm gonna go play with my baby boy. There we've got this thing that I figured out two days ago is that if I sing like a mad person, he just cracks up laughing. Like he just wore the stuff. It is the most hilarious thing that this life has brought to him so far. It's humming mom, singing, let it go from Frozen, because his older sister looks at that. So this is me. I am not alone, because I don't know the lyrics, but I am coming like a mad person in the house and he cannot stop laughing. And it is the best thing ever. And if I'm honest, if I had the balls to show myself as I am to the world, I would record a video of that and posted as an Instagram story, but I kept chickening out. I kept chickening out because I'm like, there is no way I need to keep that shred of decency. I can't do it. But I really wish I could have the balls to do that. It's honestly, it's really it's priceless. We're, we're leaning back. Because this isn't. This is intense.
Sirjana Singh:Because this is a exact, I didn't think you'd
Unknown:had the same answer here. And you guys are the exact same thing and sing probably a very similar song,
Sirjana Singh:exact same song and do it exactly the same way. Because yeah, our baby boy loves at the same thing. So our boys, too. So this is it's crazy. It's crazy. getting goosebumps. I'm going to answer the next question. Let's just me answer the next question. So the three qualities that got you where you are today, and I think that is persistence, the ability to feel an optimism and love that you
Unknown:didn't say stubborn. I'm gonna go back to my husband. Yeah. And say it's called persistence. Persistence. There you go.
Sirjana Singh:I'm just going to answer that for you. Because I am sure that the answer would have been one i Yeah.
Unknown:It's just 100% 100%. You go. Yes. Yes. Yes. You may want to is Daddy Yeah, sorry.
Sirjana Singh:If you've met Valerie in your life, just as you you've met me, and vice versa. That's how this oh my god, another takeaway from this interview, which complements
Unknown:a huge compliment. Yes. 100%. Yeah. 100% huge compliment. Because for Ben, to help me out with a few technical editing photoshopping things, if I may, and I'm also going to borrow your all of your awards. So just, you know, have that feeling. I adore you, I honestly adore you, and this is just for us. But you should ask Ali, when I would then when you sent me that little text on Instagram about reading the guide. I was just like, it was such a pure joy, like pure joy. Thank you so much, guys so much, and so much for having me for so long. Jesus. It may be a two parter.
Sirjana Singh:It might be a two parter. Yeah, but this has been a You are such a blessing. And we don't use that word. We are not religious. And so we don't use that word lightly. In our vernacular, yeah, you're a blessing and you're such a joy in our lives. And thank you for coming to this podcast and letting the world know what creativity is how they can get out of the creative rut or not even fall into a creative rut. How to be courageous and vulnerable, how to be brave with your own body as you create art. It's been it's been magical how to be eloquent. And ya know what eloquent is because she didn't tell us unfortunately how to be her. That we will be envious off but but how about what
Unknown:do you see your captions every time you are eloquent? Every time I read your captions, I'm like, Damn, that's just from a copy pasting. literally copy paste all of your captions in this way. In five minutes. I could have a month of content Already done. That would just be ah, sometimes I hate having ethics really, really, really wish I did don't just make my life so much easier. Honestly, I wouldn't take your photos just to captions.
Sirjana Singh:Yeah, so see you says you've got your you got your sound bite there Ben. Yeah, sometimes that's great vettery are going to touch base soon personally, and also on this podcast again you're coming back it's not even a question. I'm letting you know that you are coming back we have to do this again.
Unknown:You know what? Picture that next time we speak we might actually be in person in the same place. Yeah, that'd be great.
Sirjana Singh:Oh my god. Imagine that and by the time the podcast ends, we will be so drunk. Yes. Do hours of cocktails back to back to back we
Unknown:might be rivalling. Well we might be different in that scenario because I don't stand off the whole honestly like half a glass half a glass and I will be like just like sadly really? Sadly tipsy
Sirjana Singh:No, I wouldn't be I wouldn't do Yeah, but I would not stop drinking
Unknown:just there well yeah, make for a very I would make for very creative scenario we would free ourselves. Yeah, absent actually get the freedom to be creative.
Sirjana Singh:Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it next time drinking podcast with Valerie. Thank you so much for being here, Valerie and persisting through all the technical difficulties today and giving us this amazing time. And now let's go to our beautiful boys and think bad version of let it go. Let it go. Because I don't know the lyrics.
Unknown:Oh, gosh.
Ben Lane:Whoa, so jeez, guys, that was a long one today. Thank you so much for sticking around. Far out what an epic conversation. We're sure we're going to have Valerie back again for one more round of this. If you'd like to see what she's up to and check out her work. You can find her at solten shores photography.com. and on Instagram at Valerie Fernandez photography, make sure you go check her out give her like and if you're a photographer, you might want to consider checking out her mentoring options signing up for the next salt and shores lead off buying her guide. Until next time, stay Read and be creative.